Does anyone else feel like Demand is killing CS?

[taurus ;]

i think people that invalidate other's importance of things....even IF they are just pixels on a trading site and can't accept that everyone can't have everything are the bigger problem lol.
and realizing that being mad over them being not being released is just as 'greedy' or 'cutthroat' as people that hoard extremely sought after pets and even delete them.

as someone else said...why can you only appreciate it if you own it. hmm.

[taurus ;]

I just think some people really need to reevaluate how they view their pixels, for their own emotional health, apparently.

disclaimer that what I’m about to say is for the purpose of comic relief but I could write a THESIS on how much of my emotional health hinges on pixel animals shdshklh

HAHAHA Y E S.
Howrse decided to delete accounts on hiatus and I almost flipped my....stuff when I couldn't log in to my account of 6 years. :(

Luckily CS will never do that and I value it more for that reason.

[Shian]

If I buy a store pet set, then immediately delete it, are you affected in any way? No. They wouldn't have existed otherwise. That is my point. They aren't worth anything. They're images on a screen.

I still think it’s fair to say that deleting old, sought-after pets, especially ones with high rarities, and doing so in a way to deliberately upset other people is a pretty low move. no one has the right to tell someone they can’t delete a pet, but for that person to come at it with the attitude of “I’m deleting it to make it even harder for anyone else to get one,” and broadcasting that, is unkind. It’s perfectly within the person’s “right,” but it is unkind.

And who is doing that, exactly? I'm very tired of being quoted and accused of wanting to delete pets for the sole intention of upsetting others when I said nothing of the sort. I said that I spent money, I can choose what to do with my 'thank you' for doing so.

This goes back to the hoarding argument actually.
I collected a certain pet when it was uncommon. It's now very rare. No one was upset when it was uncommon but now that it's very rare I should just be forced to give it away?

[ariadne]

This will be my final time saying this: I don't care.

I'm not mad, I'm not bitter, I have no problem accepting anything, I don't care at all what happens to these store pets, delete them all, print out a picture and sleep with it under a pillow. Whatever.

I brought up rereleasing them because to me it makes sense and frankly the reaction of people threatened by the idea that someone else could own their rare pixels was astounding to me.

I've never seen a person with few rare pets go around badmouthing people with many, they're always very motivated to climb their way to their dreamies. Now people that have a lot of pets on the other hand, I've read plenty of really rude things they say like having a fortune in pixels makes them special. All I wanted to say is that maybe it's time to realize that no amount of never-to-be-released-again pets has any worth at all and just relax and have a good time for a change.

[Loelya]

And who is doing that, exactly? I'm very tired of being quoted and accused of wanting to delete pets for the sole intention of upsetting others when I said nothing of the sort. I said that I spent money, I can choose what to do with it.

This goes back to the hoarding argument actually.
I collected a certain pet when it was uncommon. It's now very rare. No one was upset when it was uncommon but now that it's very rare I should just be forced to give it away?

I apologize, I didn’t intend to come across as accusing you specifically of doing this. but this did happen somewhat recently. the user who did so deleted their account afterwards.

[Loelya]

I just think some people really need to reevaluate how they view their pixels, for their own emotional health, apparently.

disclaimer that what I’m about to say is for the purpose of comic relief but I could write a THESIS on how much of my emotional health hinges on pixel animals shdshklh

HAHAHA Y E S.
Howrse decided to delete accounts on hiatus and I almost flipped my....stuff when I couldn't log in to my account of 6 years.

Luckily CS will never do that and I value it more for that reason.

oh man that really sucks, I’m sorry that happened. I know I’d also lose my... stuff if that ever happened to me.

[Birdy]

if an site exists for 10+ years, there are going to be players who literally grew up with it and of course take it more serious than someone who just joined or is still in their early teens..

but that's the same for pretty much every other pet collecting site too, i'm not sure why that's so surprising.

there's thousands of gorgeous pets you can collect without going after limited pets, and so many ways to enjoy this game.

I joined in 2011. I'm a grown adult now, but I definitely didn't use to be.

The point of CS pets is to be appreciated. They're pieces of art. I think the idea of locking them away forever as limited editions is non-sensical and I dislike how defensive everyone has gotten over their trophies as if being limited means anything besides "less people get to appreciate this."
If that's how you want to continue that's fine, I'm not invested in it either way, most store pets creep me out because they're overdesigned to the max. I just think some people really need to reevaluate how they view their pixels, for their own emotional health, apparently.

That's their point to you. As I said before, a lot of people find joy in the thrill of collecting. If you really want everyone to be able to get every pet, you've lost that thrill. In fact, you've lost one of the larger points of CS entirely. There's no lore, very few regular events (which even they count towards collecting), no mini games, etc. For a lot of people, getting a complete collection, dreamies, hoards, etc. are their source of entertainment, and that requires work. If people really want to just appreciate the pets, they can do as Found suggested- appreciate from afar- or they can copy the image onto their own document and look at them there.

Also, I think it's worth mentioning that people can disagree without getting "defensive" or "cutthroat." I think you might be reading too deeply into some of these replies. At the end of the day, everyone will have their own opinion, and that's okay. I do understand where you're coming from- I imagine it may seem impossible for some newer players to get pets they really want, and that can be really frustrating- but I also think older users should be kept in mind as well. I hope that helps to clarify where me and some of the others are coming from a little bit! c:

[odin]

I mean, I just wanna say that I, too, have over paid for store pets and paid real money to buy them. But I'd totally be down for older store pets to be rereleased. lol 🤷‍♀️

[Blueberry]

Just gonna to give this a gentle little bump

[Tailish]

Thank you for bumping Ivy + Twine, this discussion doesn't look like it's over yet.

On demand in general:
From reading back the last few pages, the big issue with regard to demand seem to be extraordinarily high-valued pets. People have also noted that it's a problem with lower-value pets, like the PPS dragon cat or the Shima Longtail, but this seems to be less of an issue than the dreaded Skelebun.

In general, I don't think it's ever correct to say: "I'm expecting massive overpay for this pet because I like it a lot and therefore think it has good demand," but there is such a thing as demand and it is a real thing that needs to be taken into account when trading. The problem is that it seems to get abused in trading to push for higher and higher values. That's something we need to take ownership for as a community in order to prevent it. Provide proof or detailed reasoning when you give advice. Use the search function when receiving. Ask for second opinions. Stop citing the discord; some people can't access it and all trade evidence should preferably be taken from, y'know, the site where the trades are actually happening.

There is no other solution; the second-best one that we seem to have come up with until now is the "demand is up to you and your partner" as a mitigation effort, but this isn't very helpful.*

On the issue of pets that are not store pets:
Personally, I think for these lower-value pets their demand is the product of a "hype" economy, where the value keeps spiralling upwards but has a pretty strong probability of dropping eventually. This is a similar thing to what happens with very popular event outcomes when they're first released. Sometimes they go for older rares in the auctions, despite the fact that in all likelihood, they will never be worth that. For most of these pets that dies down pretty quickly (significant exceptions are the Shima, August PPS, and dragon cat). Since these pets are mostly lower-value, their spikes don't affect the economy as a whole very much and only really impact collectors. I don't see these as a very big problem; they're more part of the fun than anything.

On the issue of store pets:
For store pets that seems tricky because they do actually only ever increase in value, and have virtually no chance of decreasing. I won't talk about rereleasing, because the staff has made a decision, and we the players have to respect that. We can disagree with the decision (and I do) but respecting it is not optional. Stop it, guys.**

The problem with store pets (read: the skelebun) is that demand has pushed their values so high they are in my opinion no longer practical. The skelebun has had quoted values of what, 20+ nons? There's an eat me/drink me set going for 11+ nons in the auctions right now. These aren't useful values for most players. In my opinion, we need to de-emphasize the values of pets like these, which practically speaking just aren't practical for most players, and start emphasizing the value of middle-ground pets much more. It just doesn't make sense to include an outlier like the skelebun on the trading scale - it gives the impression either that all very rare or OMGSR pets are ridiculously, unobtainably valuable, or that none of them really are.

It makes much more sense to recentre our scale around something closer to things that people actually trade for. Comparing the value of most pets to high mainlists or even the Skelebun is like comparing my salary to that of Bill Gates: mostly speculative, difficult to scale correctly, and ultimately hella depressing.***

To stir up some discussion, let me say: remove mentions of the most valuable pets from trading tables or threads entirely. Put them in a footnote somewhere as "these are the rarest pets in the game; if you have one or are trading for one, seek help from the FFT or a staff member". They are not useful for comparison and every-day trading. Instead, emphasise mid-ground values like recent stores, rares, and pets that people actually own. This might stop only a very select subset of pets as being seen as desirable, and instead open up room for more natural fluctuations.**** It might also temper the demand of those most valuable pets if we're not constantly reminded, as a community, that these ones are valuable and the ones to go for.

*I fully understand where people are coming from when they say this on the FFT, and I also understand that it's necessary. Everyone giving advice is investing their time and effort to help and I don't want to belittle that in any way! But it's not always the most useful advice for new or young players who can't do the research or negotiations themselves, and in certain cases it's misleading.
**Similarly, players who own pets have the right to delete them, and we have to respect that. We can disagree with the decision (and I do) but respecting it is not optional.
***Wanna see how depressing? Here is a graph I made in 2017 using the old Gaps List, to compare the values of all list pets. These are already the top 1% of pets in the game, and this was made with the highest possible pet value being the Sunjewel, at about 5 nons. It has some of the problems of the Gaps List, so it's by no means accurate, but it's a fun picture to emphasise how ridiculous the scale we're working with is.
****CS is an economy, including the equivalent of a stock market and liquid currency. Values will fluctuate.

sorry about the long post i thought i had two things to say but now it's more than two, whoops