Belgian Kelpies Fanclub

[deertush]

If enough members want it the way you want it, I'd prefer to satisfy the community. I simply wanted to redo the species as a whole to satisfy me and calm me down about how it was being run and the quality being put out, but going with my needs before the community is rude of me. But understand that I am NOT putting the owners at fault for the designs. It is the artist who designed the dogs(even I have incorrect dogs out there as well) who made the mistake. I was just wanted the breed to be the quality that I originally planned them to be. But things went out of hand before and I had to leave BKs, so things got out of my control. I'm at fault for that. Thank you for stating your opinion. If enough people feel the same way that you do then the reboot won't happen so I try to satisfy the majority. Sorry to anyone I have upset. Things will continue as is on the current thread with the existing artists and I will only be here to look over everything as a supervisor. Sorry if I have been seeking rude, brash, or as if I don't care. I care a lot about the community of any species of mine and your opinions matter.

Registration may or may not occur then. But if any dogs with incorrect genes or appearances are bred then their puppies will not resemble them and I want everyone to be aware of this. Sorry for the short response, I'm busy and not in a good mood.

[cujo.]

i'm excited to see these babies are getting back on their feet again but i can definitely see where the frustration is coming from on both sides.

some people simply may not have the funds to transfer BK's over, even 'cheaply'. i have some points left over from when custom BK slots were open and i just missed them - though a part of me would still like to keep them in case slots ever reopen - but i don't buy c$ since i'm never active on here and adore eldemore much more. cs pets could be a maybe but even then my collection isn't great. i'm inactive, hate trading and i mostly just get monthly adopts. i might be in the minority here with over five kelpies but looking through my beloved babs, i imagine they'd be on the more expensive side of transfers with a chimera merle, a roan and three regular merle, on top of my 'easier' looking three. i adore them, would love for them to be still be considered offical kelpies but i'm just not sure i could afford it. i could some FR treasure or possibly offer some lioden breedings or if either of them are applicable.

i've got several breedings planned with my kelpies, all of which i was very excited about and crushed when one or two of them were accepted (freely) but never happened because of the change over. two of my BK's had mates in the planning, which i was over the moon about because i'm shy and rarely get involved in the community but i've been here from the start and it gave me confidence to try and be open. if it came to ordering breedings i'd always check to make sure the other owner still gives the go-ahead but i'd very disappointed if the only reason it couldn't go ahead is because they couldn't afford to get their BK transferred over.

however, the thing that attracted me to BK's in the first place was the realism. these were the dogs i adored when i thought it'd be a long time before i got my own (though i now have a real pup of my own <3) so they all hold a very special place in my heart, i work with them a lot privately. but i can see where dogs with wrong-genes would be frustrating from the realistic style that drew me to them in the first place and were what you were going for. i'd like my dogs to look genetically realistic (like salem, who was fixed to match his parents) but at the same time, i'm attached to their design as is; i can't imagine cas looking any different than his 'original' design.
and i can also see why a clean break would be appealing.

anyway, just my two cents of a ramble here. i had to take a break shortly after the transfer and when i came back they were pretty much completely inactive, which is why i never updated the last few dogs onto the archive though i'd love to retain my archivist position if at all possible.

[mainstream geologist]

As an owner of an adopt myself, I kind of want to give my opinion on this, if that's alright. I only own one kelpie that I got earlier this year, so I can't give the emotional connection towards the adopt as a whole like some others who have been here much longer can, but I still love my kelpie because I worked hard to get him and his design is what made me love him in the first place. When I first read about this I admit I was insanely frustrated, but now I've calmed down enough that I feel stating my opinion might be helpful.

Deer, I completely understand where you're coming from with wanting to make the adopt the best it can be, to how you envisioned it when you started it. Owning an adopt does that to people because we have this vision for the adopt, but sometimes things just get too out of hand with out real life and our online life. We could restart a million times and make up a million rules, but it still may never work out, but that doesn't mean it's not great for the people who are a member of the community. I can see you love the community and the adopt, and that you want the best for both, but personally I feel like you're going the wrong way with fixing the problems you've mentioned.

I talked about this with a friend who also owns a BK, as well as a friend who's not even a member of this community and both agreed with me that paying to register a dog that was already an official part of the adopt, just to make them a part of the same adopt again, is rather ridiculous. I understand that you want to fix the coats because their genes may be wrong, but, well, this isn't real life, this is an adopt, and if you can just as easily sit and remake 200 adopts, then you can fix the problem easier by fixing the genes given the best that you can so that they match their design. That way the designs that people fell in love with don't change, and their pups could still resemble them. Of course I don't know anything about dog genetics, so I'm probably not the best person to give advice on that. Personally, I can't pay to have my Kelpie registered, I only get on dA to check Makoatl related things, which I usually pay real cash for, and CS I'm only on for my friends and communities.

But like Schainukan said, it'll be so much easier on you if you just focus on the new adopts and making them perfect; to your standards. I learn from other adopts mistakes when it comes to me running HG, and what I've learned is that it's usually so much easier to take baby steps and correct as you go. Not every HG is "perfect" or made to my quality of art or better, hell, some are even better than I can do, but that's what an adopt is. It's not all perfection and rules, it's making things that the community loves and wants. Basically by that I mean, although I'm not an artist for this adopt, it bothers me greatly that you said the new staff would be limited to those with talent like yours or greater. It's not about the talent as there's a difference between art that people love and pointless scribbles. Every Kelpie I've seen released has been gorgeous, and I can't understand why you'd want to removed some of these artists who put out these gorgeous Kelpies. If it's about the genetics, then take it upon yourself to help them learn about the genetics. I teach my artists something new all the time, showing them how some genes work and so on, I've actually helped friends who want to become guest artists for my adopt learn about horse genetics and even design techniques. Be a teacher, not a dictator.

I'm sorry if any of this upsets you more, deer, but I felt the need to say this since you mentioned if others saw things the same way then you'd go with majority vote. Some of this is probably really cheesy and means nothing to you, but I'm a cheesy person and I thought maybe a view on how I go about fixing things like such in my adopt could help you out. Again, deeply sorry if this at all offended you, I just wanted to throw my opinion out there.

[deertush]

Then I guess that settles it. There will be no revamp. Sorry for bothering everyone.
Continue on as normal. Sorry if I offended anyone, it wasn't my intention. Artists will remain.

Sorry for the inconvenience and making people so mad that they couldn't even respond at first.

[Sandy Hoofprints]

[[I wrote this before the last few posts, but it still stands]]

Ok, I'm just going to say a very big welcome back to deer and fall, because I didn't earlier. I respect you sooo much for how you are dealing with this. Don't let the conflict get you down, it must be very stressful when you are no longer doing what you want, but what the majority wants <3

I'll go with whatever is decided, and I appreciate that you are trying your very best to make things better for bks! I hope everyone in the community understands that you did not make a final decision and that they don't feel cheated out of anything, because it's clear to see that you care so much and just want to make awesome adopts! x3

I think it would be a great idea to update bks, so I think you should still go ahead and make a new thread to make it neater and everything... but I do think that the old and new versions should at least be similar and compatible - i.e no 'official' and 'unofficial' ones - basically make changes gradually maybe, and try to do it the way you want it to go from here on in?
It might also be an idea to offer owners the choice of what to do with incorrect coats. Perhaps an optional free revamp on the current lines, or a paid remake on the new lines. Then it could be optional to get your existing dogs transferred to the new lines, also for a small fee. So basically everyone is kept happy, and people don't have to pay for anything if they don't want to/can't.
I also like the idea of swapping the genes rather than coats, if that is possible, but I'm crap at dog genes xD

[Schainukan]

I am very thankful for your understanding and the fact that I can speak my mind without having the immense fear of being banned just because of having done so.

I actually think a reboot with a new thread is not a bad idea, getting things fresh again just that redoing the existing BKs is taking up too much time of yours, Deer, Fall/watchdog and also the current/possible new artists. I want you guys to have fun creating new designs and enjoy seeing the community bloom once again. I know how tiring it can be to redo or have to follow certain preferences stated which is making the artist unable to run free and make the adoptable look how they want. Then the artists are the ones we, the community, should be thankful for for having and making new BKs, so them being happy is very important. X3

And it's okay, Deer, we all have hard times in our life which make us unable to do as we please and we just got to retreat sometimes and take care of those private things first. I don't think anyone is putting you at fault for having to had left Belgian Kelpies. Heck, I've been trying on my own to reboot a taken-over species of mine which I just can't seem to accomplish and I can understand how hard this must be. ;u;

About the fact that there are Kelpies with inccorect genetics and looks out there, I would have a much simpler suggestion than remaking all of them. Of course you can choose to do this or not.^^
How about teaching the current artists and possible new artists after an artist search, the right genetics and looks the dog would have along those? Maybe in a Skype group, step for step, basics and then harder steps or simply use the already existing thread with those genes?
Actually, I have been looking around the internet a few days earlier about dog genes (had to make a genotype for my sheepdog) and found a really good site that explains the most genes with a couple of pictures as visual examples.
You could link to the site and its topics, basics and the different genes, on our BK gene thread.
Probably add that game about dog genes that someone found once and linked(?) on the fanclub.

[Ovacalix]

Mm, perhaps a happy medium could be found here?

There is no reason this species cant be revamped while still holding the original adopts in the registry. I don't see as much negotiation here as there could be to make both parties happy, and this worries me quite a bit.

What about this? (and I understand deer, you've technically already made your call, but I feel like we could give your revamp a shot instead of throwing it off the table completely. If you want me to remove this, pm me, and I will.)


- You can revamp genetics as you wish, create a new adoption thread even, but resign from making updates mandatory. Instead, make them optional. This way, those who do want to see their dogs confine to the new geno-set have the option to do so, and you get compensation for your time and effort to get them that.

- as you said above, incorrect genes can be corrected much easier when it comes to breeding. This way markings that will no longer be considered 'valid' wont pass on to offspring and continue that trend. Like 'retired' markings or something that would be a fun breeding achievement down the road.

- I also like the idea of educating future artists when it comes to genetics, but I also like the idea of being a little loose when it comes to genes. Not every artist has the same style, but someone will always love the dog they get. That's what matters I think. I feel like in the long term, anyway, it will be much easier to commit to educating hired artists than it would be to set such a strict standard that you may, very well, be handling all of this yourself.

Again I just want to find a way for everyone to be happy in this. I hate to see everyone so unhappy with these circumstances.

[heyheygirl101]

This is from an Artists perspective, but if you want it too look how you envisioned the BKs I agree with Schainukan in that you need to show us how you want it to be done. When I was hired not that long ago Zax and I agreed that it would be best if I sent all of the BKs to them first before posting them to make sure that 1. there genes were correct and 2. that they looked good enough. If something was wrong with the BK whether it be the markings, how I hadn't incorporated the fur aspect into the coat, or that I had messed up on one of the genes and it didn't reflect the right coat, Zax told me and I was able to produce a better looking BK each time. So yes it makes it a little more work for you as the owner but if you want all of us to make what you want then you have to put that extra work in, but it leads to BKs that everyone can be proud of.

[foxxbreath]

I think a happy medium is best too, if not jut leaving things as it is!

I agree with the fixing genes through breeding and future pups, but allowing current dogs to remain valid without having to pay or revamp them as well. I don' t think the genes should be all out redone, though, but maybe gradually so people can adjust to the change?
As for the artist thing, I know during the competition it tried so hard to make the best designs I could. And Zax did have is submit them to them first before posting to ensure the markings matched the genes and the genes were compatible with each other. I understand you want quality, but everyone needs to start somewhere and as mentioned above, there will always be someone to love a dog's design even if they aren't perfectly designed!

And now that oekaki is being fixed and all, I'm sure a lot of the artists will be able to get back into the swing of designing and improve even more.

[Lady Tuesday]

Mm, perhaps a happy medium could be found here?

There is no reason this species cant be revamped while still holding the original adopts in the registry. I don't see as much negotiation here as there could be to make both parties happy, and this worries me quite a bit.

What about this? (and I understand deer, you've technically already made your call, but I feel like we could give your revamp a shot instead of throwing it off the table completely. If you want me to remove this, pm me, and I will.)


- You can revamp genetics as you wish, create a new adoption thread even, but resign from making updates mandatory. Instead, make them optional. This way, those who do want to see their dogs confine to the new geno-set have the option to do so, and you get compensation for your time and effort to get them that.

- as you said above, incorrect genes can be corrected much easier when it comes to breeding. This way markings that will no longer be considered 'valid' wont pass on to offspring and continue that trend. Like 'retired' markings or something that would be a fun breeding achievement down the road.

- I also like the idea of educating future artists when it comes to genetics, but I also like the idea of being a little loose when it comes to genes. Not every artist has the same style, but someone will always love the dog they get. That's what matters I think. I feel like in the long term, anyway, it will be much easier to commit to educating hired artists than it would be to set such a strict standard that you may, very well, be handling all of this yourself.

Again I just want to find a way for everyone to be happy in this. I hate to see everyone so unhappy with these circumstances.

I think that out of everything I have read, this is what I most agree with. Please don't think that we don't want you here, Deer, or that we don't want BKs to start back up again because we had some qualms with the initial reboot plan, because that is absolutely not the case! I think that the points that Mute mentioned were very good points that gave to both sides and I hope you consider them. ^^