"The" Rares List Guide - Do not ask about new UR's!

[nickjr]

Basically, a tiny amount of demand will cause chain reactions that will cause demand to grow bigger and cause even more chain reactions that will make it even bigger? If so, then yep, I understand D:

Exactly. It happens almost every month with the new outcomes. It's the same with the list. You can't go by demand as not everyone wants it to have it. They just want more out of it.

-nods-

What really makes me concerned is that fact that I often see people offering overpay in regular trades. Not a bad thing on its own (the person is generous for overpaying), but I'm wondering what kind of effect that has on others... and I'm wondering why they're overpaying in the first place. Are they overpaying in trades because everyone else is, or are they overpaying because they genuinely want to overpay and would overpay regardless of what everyone else does?

And if other people see the person overpaying, what are they going to think? Are they going to think, "wow, that person must be overpaying because there must be a lot of other people overpaying!! therefore the pet they want must be in really high demand!!!"? or are they going to think "wow, that person is pretty dang generous"? And if they think both of those thoughts, does the "that pet must be in high demand" thought influence the trades they then make involving that pet?

...
//ramble

[Lake Petal]

I believe I pointed this out a few posts ago...

Hekomi, I think that the Joker should be ranked through rarity. Whilst I agree it has high demand, I've found that with many demaned pets- like the Hollyfox and BA- they are only demanded because something like this happened:

(1) OMG look a BA I WANT IT
(2) That player wants a BA.. Maybe that person will overpay for it!
(3) Hmm? 2 wants a BA too? Well maybe they are in demand! I want one!

I've found this happens a fair bit - with new outcomes, I think this happened with the Grinners to. The only difference being here is that because they have been placed highly because of demand alone, and because people refuse to read the "Rares list already takes demand", as well as the fact the demand has been here a fair bit for ages, maybe the hype will cease a little if it is moved down to where it actually belongs. If we value it with demand... Well, then I'd pretty sure it would be bumped up to at least a purple tox.

[SilverPersimmon]

Sorry Petal on a lake, I wasn't active in here a few pages ago. But the 'demand' thing keeps getting thrown in my face and so few people think about before throwing that word around. It's been getting on my nerves.
I'm glad we are on the same page with that though and people understand what I mean.

[Kevinsaurus]

I'm going to give my input in for the UR Banana and Cucumber. Though I had the same issues with my Plains Zebra, it wasn't as bad. But I offsite traded for my Zebra so I can't say about trading up for that. I can only say about trading down these pets.

Tho the Banana seems to be slightly rarer to me less people are after it. There are more Cucumbers but it seems more people want them. But every time I try to get a fair trade or a lot of time even underpay but still asking for pets above the Big Gap, I get told because of demand it's not worth anything.
And I have to say thats crap.

Running around with both of them, a lot of people want them. Be it if they can afford them or not. Either if they want them because they are above the Big Gap or the are OMGSR or they want the fruit itself. Or even just to move up the list.
What people fail to understand when they love to spit the word 'demand' out all the time is the fact people /DO/ want these pets for various reasons. And just because people aren't overpaying for them or going nuts about them they have no demand. And that makes no sense. They DO have demand just not as insane as the UR Tiger or Joker. And it annoys me to no end that people that do want them aren't willing to trade fairly because of 'poor demand'. It makes no sense.

Them being equal to each other makes sense. And their position on the list seems to reflect the amount I see and the amount of people who want them. But the word 'demand' for pet most of the list pets needs to stop being thrown around. Even trading Sorbets is a pain because, again, their 'poor demand'. Yet people want them and still use that excuse to not trade fair.

Demand shouldn't be a big factor in the list. If demand is going to factor in so much, the UR Tiger is going to be worth 2 Sunjewels, the Joker is going to be worth a Non-jewel and the BA is going to be worth a little below a Sorbet and the PPS Lion is going to be a low main list pet. And other things will be moved down. Like rats wouldn't even touch the list, Sorbets would be lower and half the things on the September list would be Advents along with half the advents being taken off. Along with a lot more changes that would make no sense and would never reflect their real value.
Reading Kevinsaurus's post above mine, I agree with the supply thing. All the work all of you have put into this list should show more. Not for people to use to overpay for high demand pets and say their place needs to be moved up or underpay for poor demand pets and say they need to move down. People are still going to say the same excuses no matter where they are on the list. Despite demand there is still a limit to how many of each pet there is. There will always be less out there then people that want them and people keep forgetting thing.

Regarding demand -- it's a delicate issue. In some ideal utopia, we wouldn't need demand; but nevertheless it's there. It's not something we can completely avoid (otherwise there would be some major issues). Demand can be viewed in two aspects: demand influencing spikes in value, and demand influencing crashes in value. The spikes in value have to be considered, but as I've been pointing out and such in my previous posts, you have to look at the source of the spikes as well as what people are interpreting things as and trying to do to pets when judging whether or not a pet should be moved up.

With that being said, it's pretty much the reason that I expect the banana and cucumber aren't being moved down or anything. They're very rare; people are just trying to manipulate them in a sense to a certain level that pleases those who want to be able to trade for them. Don't think it's been explicitly posted and said, but I'm pretty positive there's nothing happening to the placement of those URs.

Adopt virtual pets at Chicken Smoothie!

will this come on the list?
its been a hard to find Vr, amd people gave low - mid advents for it, so ..

im not sure where this belongs, or here, or pet worth, or upcoming rarity changes..im sorry if i took the wrong thread, couldnt find it in the rules either ^^"

Compared to the outcomes that are on the advent list at the moment, I've personally seen a handful more of those yellow ones, but that's with a lot of extensive searching and stuff. Personally, I don't think it's really quite rare enough or hard enough to find or has enough demand to really jump up to the advent list yet (if it were to be moved, I can think of at least 1-2 more bunnies that would have to be moved as well basically because they're in the same boat, and I don't think those should really be moved either).

on the topic of moving pets, i beleive the raven dog should be moved up one teir, my reasons are as fallows

1) the raven easily goes for high advents, (teir 7 to sockdog*), grinners, cakedogs and the occasional main list.

2) I have never seen a fair teir swap **

3) they seem to have more demand then anything else on the same teir

4) store pets, as of this moment, are not rereleased and gain greater value as they grow older

5) the raven has more demand then its litter mate, the patchwork, so like the lolita and green android it should be moved up

~Please note that this is not a baised conclusion because i want to trade them for higher worth, even though i have one and have auctioned another one, i constantly see offers of bordercollies, blue spotted advent, cookies and grinners on the one i still have

I have also seen a number of frustrated people complaining that they cannot get a teir swap to a raven, or even trade a seal pps to one~

also note that i am not trying to start a debate and i honestly believe that a teir up could eleviate some frustration, though i do understand if it stays the same

_____________________________________________________________________
* sockdog only, i have never seen anything else
** this is subjective to what i have viewed and my not always be the case

It's pretty generally established that store pets gain value over time, with the older store pets being worth more than the newer ones. It's also pretty well established that their movement on the lists will change every now and then upwards just given the nature of store pets (in the aspects of rarity, age, cost, and demand). It's definitely something to consider with the lists, but I think for now we've still got some potential discussion about the main list and certain gaps we'd need to resolve, and I think it'd probably be best to stick with that for now. We'd probably have to examine the september list too afterwards before even moving to the advent list, so I'd probably hold off on this thought for now.

Out of curiosity:

All of the trades that have been talked about in the last ten or so pages ("I've seen a joker go for a nonjewel" or "I've seen black advents go for sorbets" etc etc)... were those trades or auctions? I think auctions can be used to see how much demand something has, but they're different from trades in the sense that auctions are literally "highest bidder wins and nothing else matters no matter how ridiculous things get because you're the highest bidder!" while trades are just "if you want this and have that then please let me know, but since we're trading then please don't be ridiculous because we're just trading"...

Not sure if I got my point across correctly, but I hope I did xD

Don't have links to dig out because I don't deal with crazy demand pets for the sake of not blowing my brains out, but a majority of transactions of pets (I'd say at least 50-60%) such as the joker or black advents for their maximum rate are through auctions. Auctions are a winner-take-all situation, and it's more so for those who are willing to and can afford to pay a lot for a pet. When generally trading, people tend to stick to the list more strictly to be on the safe side. This is not to say there aren't plenty of regular trades for them or other pets that are somewhat similar in their volatility (as even in regular trades the same kind of behavior occurs), but it's not a 100% occurrence in trades, as opposed to auctions (it's basically 100%).

I believe I pointed this out a few posts ago...

Hekomi, I think that the Joker should be ranked through rarity. Whilst I agree it has high demand, I've found that with many demaned pets- like the Hollyfox and BA- they are only demanded because something like this happened:

(1) OMG look a BA I WANT IT
(2) That player wants a BA.. Maybe that person will overpay for it!
(3) Hmm? 2 wants a BA too? Well maybe they are in demand! I want one!

I've found this happens a fair bit - with new outcomes, I think this happened with the Grinners to. The only difference being here is that because they have been placed highly because of demand alone, and because people refuse to read the "Rares list already takes demand", as well as the fact the demand has been here a fair bit for ages, maybe the hype will cease a little if it is moved down to where it actually belongs. If we value it with demand... Well, then I'd pretty sure it would be bumped up to at least a purple tox.

As for opinions on joker movement, I've already expressed my sentiments. The list in general, if it more or less follows the same tendencies for all pets across the board, has and should and will continue to be primarily rarity-based. All pets have some level of demand, and for anybody in general who may be against moving anything, there's only a few pets that are truly affected by demand on the list. The majority of the pets are placed almost by rarity solely. Sadly, I doubt moving the joker down to an advent / september level would do much. I'm pretty confident in due time it'll behave like the BMD or BA and just settle down again, I can't see it going up and up that much more. If any pet went up ridiculous amounts, there'd be a breaking point where nobody would pay that much.

[SilverPersimmon]

Oh I understand demand is always going to be a factor. As it should, to a point. But every single pet in CS is wanted to some degree to some percentage of CS players.
But demand also fluctuates. Like if one month there are 3 people wanting a Yellow Sorbet with 4 of them floating around and then the next month 5 people want a Blue Toxic with 3 of them floating around and for the rest of the year no one is actively hunting any Sorbets or Toxic, it doesn't mean there is no demand or theres not enough to go around/too many to go around. Just no one is actively hunting for them. People want them just not trying all that hard at the moment. Just examples, not saying any of this is true.

Not everyone posts in trades. I know a handful of COPPA users who have rare list pets and do trade fairly for them to move up and down. So only them and the people they trade with would know the trades. To go on active demand/supply isn't going to give an accurate view.

I know the list isn't only on demand. Just saying things with high/low demand shouldn't be moved based on 'high demand'. They are mostly 'trending' pets if you will.

[Kevinsaurus]

Oh I understand demand is always going to be a factor. As it should, to a point. But every single pet in CS is wanted to some degree to some percentage of CS players.
But demand also fluctuates. Like if one month there are 3 people wanting a Yellow Sorbet with 4 of them floating around and then the next month 5 people want a Blue Toxic with 3 of them floating around and for the rest of the year no one is actively hunting any Sorbets or Toxic, it doesn't mean there is no demand or theres not enough to go around/too many to go around. Just no one is actively hunting for them. People want them just not trying all that hard at the moment. Just examples, not saying any of this is true.

Not everyone posts in trades. I know a handful of COPPA users who have rare list pets and do trade fairly for them to move up and down. So only them and the people they trade with would know the trades. To go on active demand/supply isn't going to give an accurate view.

I know the list isn't only on demand. Just saying things with high/low demand shouldn't be moved based on 'high demand'. They are mostly 'trending' pets if you will.

Demand is always fluctuating throughout a calendar year, but it's never as extreme as those cases. The fact of the matter with the banana and cucumber is that they're basically staying right where they are anyways, so demand shouldn't really be an issue with regards to their placement or anything (the placement of basically just about all the pets isn't changing, it's the gaps that are the focal point). As for high demand, some pets to a certain extent, do have to be moved based on high demand alone. That's the sole reason the joker and BA were placed at their current positions in the first place. You can't fully ignore a demand spike and its influence on the market; you can, however, figure out where the boundaries lie in order to prevent the pushing of over-the-top somewhat falsified values. And with things like the joker and BA and tiger, I wouldn't consider them trending pets. In general, things that trend do so for a period of time before an end. These three pets will likely never see an end to their demand, for various reasons. They have to be treated as something that's got a demand influence that should be considered at least and can't be ignored completely just because it has "high demand". For the same reason that one should uphold a value for a high-valued pet even though people say it's in low demand, you have to take into the account of "high demand" for a pet that would generally be treated normally. It'd be nice to put high demand pets where they should be rarity-wise, but you simply cannot do that with this list, given the nature of CS.

May someone please tell me is this rat is on any of the lists and what its called?

The rat isn't on the advent list, and it's name (if it has one) can probably easily be found by searching in a CS Rat guide or by searching the forums about 2008 advent rats. Please use the search function and go through the list yourself to check before asking about the presence of pets on the lists next time.

[SilverPersimmon]

Demand is always fluctuating throughout a calendar year, but it's never as extreme as those cases. The fact of the matter with the banana and cucumber is that they're basically staying right where they are anyways, so demand shouldn't really be an issue with regards to their placement or anything (the placement of basically just about all the pets isn't changing, it's the gaps that are the focal point). As for high demand, some pets to a certain extent, do have to be moved based on high demand alone. That's the sole reason the joker and BA were placed at their current positions in the first place. You can't fully ignore a demand spike and its influence on the market; you can, however, figure out where the boundaries lie in order to prevent the pushing of over-the-top somewhat falsified values. And with things like the joker and BA and tiger, I wouldn't consider them trending pets. In general, things that trend do so for a period of time before an end. These three pets will likely never see an end to their demand, for various reasons. They have to be treated as something that's got a demand influence that should be considered at least and can't be ignored completely just because it has "high demand". For the same reason that one should uphold a value for a high-valued pet even though people say it's in low demand, you have to take into the account of "high demand" for a pet that would generally be treated normally. It'd be nice to put high demand pets where they should be rarity-wise, but you simply cannot do that with this list, given the nature of CS.

They were just examples, nothing reflecting anything thats going on.
I understand now they aren't going anywhere. It was just my two cents in their placement, demand and supply.

The Tiger is always going to be high. That's not going to change.
With the BA and Joker for instance, I know it takes into account everything in it's place and I know demand is a factor. My point is their insane demand doesn't reflect their true demand. I don't know if they should be moved up or down along with any other pets. Just my point is isn't not always their actual demand. I've been here at times where CS can goes 2-3 weeks with anyone actively looking for or trading either of them. People still want them and people still have them but it seems to me those are the times were people can get them for more fair trades. When one person wants it or one person has it, it starts a chain. Other people that have/want it are going to advertise it and then a 'demand' spike happens. It doesn't mean certain pets are more wanted/less wanted it's just a chain reaction. As been pointed out by other people before me.

My argument is to not use demand as a big factor. Just because some people are willing to pay something doesn't mean the other maybe 10 people that want it are willing to trade that much. For example: If 5 out of 20 people pay something for a pet it doesn't mean the other 15 people should be forced to pay that much when theres another 10 of that pet around. If that makes what I'm saying a bit more clear.

[Kevinsaurus]

Demand is always fluctuating throughout a calendar year, but it's never as extreme as those cases. The fact of the matter with the banana and cucumber is that they're basically staying right where they are anyways, so demand shouldn't really be an issue with regards to their placement or anything (the placement of basically just about all the pets isn't changing, it's the gaps that are the focal point). As for high demand, some pets to a certain extent, do have to be moved based on high demand alone. That's the sole reason the joker and BA were placed at their current positions in the first place. You can't fully ignore a demand spike and its influence on the market; you can, however, figure out where the boundaries lie in order to prevent the pushing of over-the-top somewhat falsified values. And with things like the joker and BA and tiger, I wouldn't consider them trending pets. In general, things that trend do so for a period of time before an end. These three pets will likely never see an end to their demand, for various reasons. They have to be treated as something that's got a demand influence that should be considered at least and can't be ignored completely just because it has "high demand". For the same reason that one should uphold a value for a high-valued pet even though people say it's in low demand, you have to take into the account of "high demand" for a pet that would generally be treated normally. It'd be nice to put high demand pets where they should be rarity-wise, but you simply cannot do that with this list, given the nature of CS.

They were just examples, nothing reflecting anything thats going on.
I understand now they aren't going anywhere. It was just my two cents in their placement, demand and supply.

The Tiger is always going to be high. That's not going to change.
With the BA and Joker for instance, I know it takes into account everything in it's place and I know demand is a factor. My point is their insane demand doesn't reflect their true demand. I don't know if they should be moved up or down along with any other pets. Just my point is isn't not always their actual demand. I've been here at times where CS can goes 2-3 weeks with anyone actively looking for or trading either of them. People still want them and people still have them but it seems to me those are the times were people can get them for more fair trades. When one person wants it or one person has it, it starts a chain. Other people that have/want it are going to advertise it and then a 'demand' spike happens. It doesn't mean certain pets are more wanted/less wanted it's just a chain reaction. As been pointed out by other people before me.

My argument is to not use demand as a big factor. Just because some people are willing to pay something doesn't mean the other maybe 10 people that want it are willing to trade that much. For example: If 5 out of 20 people pay something for a pet it doesn't mean the other 15 people should be forced to pay that much when theres another 10 of that pet around. If that makes what I'm saying a bit more clear.

I'm not sure if I agree completely on the thing about the insane vs. true demand. After all, the demand that you see from players trying to trade for jokers is THE demand of the pet after all, isn't it? And the chain mechanism and all these other phenomena that have been described apply to every single pet on CS after all, not just specific ones, just at different levels, which is sort of the point of the placement of some pets on the list as high as they are placed in the first place. Hence my statement regarding the placement of the joker. A placement this high in retrospect was probably not the best idea necessarily, although at this point there are definitely downs to moving it either up or down. Also, with regards to the chain reactions, they aren't something that happens quickly or anything; so-called "chain reactions" have other limiting factors to them, and they're long-term events and progressions. Whether or not the demand was facilitated by the pets other players have or the goals of other players on CS or not, their demand as it stands nowadays is what their true demand is.

Aside from that, I'm not arguing with you about the rest of it so to speak. You originally brought up the banana and cucumber as your main topic of interest, and my main point (if there was concern as to its placement or how demand might affect it) was that they won't be moving whatsoever because of their rarity. To downgrade a pet is different than upgrading a pet, which is why those kinds of movements are considered in different lights. So hopefully that clarifies the banana & cucumber thing.

[Solloby]

Re the UR Fruit, back in January I posted requesting they be reviewed because I don't think they are worth the same anymore due to supply reasons, not demand. This is Cucumber's second rerelease, and it feels like its supply was more than doubled, whereas Bananas seem to remain rather steady. Also, Grapes don't seem to be around much, and when I unlocked my fruit group 100% of the offers were for the grapes.

After the rerelease, I did not see that many new Bananas so I think they are fine where they are in the list. But boy did the Cucumbers come out of the woodworks. I think I was offered about half a dozen of them over a couple of days even though I wasn't looking for or trading for them. I had it casually on my wishlist as something I accept for art trades along with some other rares list pets but had to remove it to stop people sending me trade suggestions and PMs about it, and even after that I was still offered them. Everyone was trying to get rid of them; I did not experience this with any other fruit. On the UR pet count thread, there are a lot of Dec 2012 dated Cucumbers floating around.

I'd really like to see some UR pet counts, to see if my experience was just coincidence or if there really are a truckload of new Cucumbers in the system. Because if there are, it should be moved down. I'd also be interested to see if the Grapes need to be moved up in response to their low supply. Because to be honest, it feels like there are more Cucumbers floating around for trade than Grapes. If this is actually true then their placements on the Rares List are very, very off. We need some quantitative data on this though, one person's qualitative experiences aren't enough to prompt a Rares List change.

[nickjr]

Re the UR Fruit, back in January I posted requesting they be reviewed because I don't think they are worth the same anymore due to supply reasons, not demand. This is Cucumber's second rerelease, and it feels like its supply was more than doubled, whereas Bananas seem to remain rather steady. Also, Grapes don't seem to be around much, and when I unlocked my fruit group 100% of the offers were for the grapes.

After the rerelease, I did not see that many new Bananas so I think they are fine where they are in the list. But boy did the Cucumbers come out of the woodworks. I think I was offered about half a dozen of them over a couple of days even though I wasn't looking for or trading for them. I had it casually on my wishlist as something I accept for art trades along with some other rares list pets but had to remove it to stop people sending me trade suggestions and PMs about it, and even after that I was still offered them. Everyone was trying to get rid of them; I did not experience this with any other fruit. On the UR pet count thread, there are a lot of Dec 2012 dated Cucumbers floating around.

I'd really like to see some UR pet counts, to see if my experience was just coincidence or if there really are a truckload of new Cucumbers in the system. Because if there are, it should be moved down. I'd also be interested to see if the Grapes need to be moved up in response to their low supply. Because to be honest, it feels like there are more Cucumbers floating around for trade than Grapes. If this is actually true then their placements on the Rares List are very, very off. We need some quantitative data on this though, one person's qualitative experiences aren't enough to prompt a Rares List change.

Makes me wonder if we should review the List itself first before moving on to the gaps... xD;