Operation P.A.W. | MOVED! Please lock! c:

[Ki-Mono]

anybody on?
oh well, i'll come back later

[f l i g h t.]

^ I see your point, but wolves kill livestock because they and they're prey are being driven off their land because of human development. Wolves are animals. They don't know that -insert farm animal here- provides income for a family. They don't know that what they're doing is wrong in our eyes. A wolf just tries to survive. And if they aren't eating meat from the kill, then they're either training themselves, or training their pups.

Just my input. :3 Jumped in like Kat did... I'll jump back out now.

THISSSS ^^^ LOVE IT.

[cswolf.]

(Do you wanna be an Affiliates with my save the long eared jerboa thread?
viewtopic.php?f=44&t=754043)

[Soruc]

Feel free to take me off the member's list as I support wolf hunting. You may keep me on if you wish, however.

[f l i g h t.]

@.:Mook:. I truthfully say this from the bottom of my heart, that if I were a farmer, I would think exactly as I think now. The wolves rightfully were there first, and of course they'd see the livestock as prey animals. We could perhaps move, or put up a large fence. But I would never tolerate the killing of wolves, just because they killed some livestock. It's the food-chain.

Sorry to awkwardly hop in here, just hijacking the conversation c: I'm Kat, hello!

I see you happen to like wolves. Good lad, I love 'em too! However, we have to always look at both sides of the story, and, in this case, my client is the farmer, and I'd like to speak up for him.

Farmer Joe owns some cows. These cows are sold for a good chunk of cash a pop, cash that goes towards Joe's family and putting food on the table. So far, he's been doing great, he's had a good year.

But, alas, one fateful night a group of wolves manages to eek in through the fences and take out almost half of his herd, not to mention a cow that had been born sickly, the cow that he had spent hundreds of dollars in medicine and care and grew attached to. This has most definitely taken a huge chunk out of his profits and has made putting food on the table a heck of a lot harder. Farmer Joe is at a loss. The government gives him a bit of money to make up for it, but it's only a fraction of what the cows would've sold for and he is pretty much broke at this point.

Some may protest: "Build a better fence!" Wolves are wily creatures, them, and they know how to jump and dig, meaning you need to have a fence both respectable in height and depth. Materials and the installation (can you imagine digging the trenches for it?) of such a fence is quite an expensive venture. Joe, having just lost half his profits, most definitely does not have that kind of money right now.

And yet, more say: "It doesn't have to be deep! Just line it with stone!" Well, stone is also an incredibly expensive material to build with. Let's just say it's $15 per square foot, and we're lining a farm that's a square mile in size. If I did my math right, that's $316,800 just in stone alone! Not to mention the actual fence and installation costs. Plus, just one foot-wide lining surely isn't enough to keep the beasties out.

Moving is perhaps out of the question entirely, seeing as that would cost an insane amount of money, as well as the displacement of families.

The way I see it, no one objects when one wolf pack takes over another pack's territory. There is no 'they were here first' (seeing as we evolved all around a similar time, right?), the fact is that we are here, now. And right now Farmer Joe can't send his children to college because wolves are overpopulated in his area and killing off his main source of income.

I also saw earlier that you said, "Would you rather save a couple hundred dollars or a beautiful animal?" Or something like that, my memory's not the best and I'm far too lazy to check at this hour, forgive me. I find sheep just as beautiful as wolves. I don't see why a wolf's life is more important than the life of my animal. If a wolf came and attacked my dog, cat, or even my mouse I'd try and scare it off, and, if that didn't work, grab a gun. Animals are income and friends to families, that is something not to be taken lightly.

You might say it's the food chain, but why can't we protect our standing in it? Why do we have to let the wolves eat whatever and whenever they please? Why can't we fight back? Why are we not allowed to secure ourselves? Because the unfortunate truth is that when wolves grow overpopulated, nature will not be able to thin them out anymore. They can and will adapt, and will learn how to live in urban areas, eating trash, livestock, pets, and, eventually, if no measures are taken, children and people. I've got nothing against wolves, mind you, if I did I wouldn't be on this site, but it's happened with coyotes across the U.S. and bears in Yellowstone. It can happen with wolves, too. If there is not something to keep the apex predator in check, they will adapt and move on. Unfortunately, it's nature.

Anyway, best be off now, I hope you've read through and enjoyed my response c: It's been a lovely chat.

My first thing to reply, is that:

Well, you see, I agree with killing wolves if their population is overgrowing. (But, I will never agree with aerial shooting, because if you search it, maybe watch a video about it, it's horrible. Never a clean kill, the poor wolves writhing around in agony, made me cry watching one of those videos....)
Mind you, the human population is already way too large. Check out this website for instance: http://www.rain-tree.com/facts.htm Humans are becoming so numerous in population that we are driving animals out of their homes, chopping down rainforest, it's just terrible. Just because we (Humans as a whole) think that we are so superior that we can do that. Now, back to the wolves, Farmer Joe could find a new job possibly, one with good pay. Then perhaps they could move (Trying to come up with ideas here ^^). And you may be right, how wolves are not more important than livestock. But, it mostly varies on who you are. Who is more important in your eyes. I've rethought, and now I say that they are equally important. They are both animals and such... yes.

I would also like to add, that, some people see wolves as savage mindless beasts who kill livestock because they're born to kill. This was mostly the main point I was arguing about. Wolves aren't mindless killing machines, they're intelligent, thoughtful, communicational creatures, just like, well, like most everything else. I can understand how a farmer would not tolerate wolves killing their livestock, but I'm trying to find out another way to solve it then a gun.

[Ki-Mono]

^ I see your point, but wolves kill livestock because they and they're prey are being driven off their land because of human development. Wolves are animals. They don't know that -insert farm animal here- provides income for a family. They don't know that what they're doing is wrong in our eyes. A wolf just tries to survive. And if they aren't eating meat from the kill, then they're either training themselves, or training their pups.

Just my input. :3 Jumped in like Kat did... I'll jump back out now.

THISSSS ^^^ LOVE IT.

i think the same. wolves do what they were made to do, wather it mess's up our plains or not!

Feel free to take me off the member's list as I support wolf hunting. You may keep me on if you wish, however.

why did you join if you support wolf hunting?!

[texaco]

My first thing to reply, is that:

Well, you see, I agree with killing wolves if their population is overgrowing. (But, I will never agree with aerial shooting, because if you search it, maybe watch a video about it, it's horrible. Never a clean kill, the poor wolves writhing around in agony, made me cry watching one of those videos....)
Mind you, the human population is already way too large. Check out this website for instance: http://www.rain-tree.com/facts.htm Humans are becoming so numerous in population that we are driving animals out of their homes, chopping down rainforest, it's just terrible. Just because we (Humans as a whole) think that we are so superior that we can do that. Now, back to the wolves, Farmer Joe could find a new job possibly, one with good pay. Then perhaps they could move (Trying to come up with ideas here ^^). And you may be right, how wolves are not more important than livestock. But, it mostly varies on who you are. Who is more important in your eyes. I've rethought, and now I say that they are equally important. They are both animals and such... yes.

I would also like to add, that, some people see wolves as savage mindless beasts who kill livestock because they're born to kill. This was mostly the main point I was arguing about. Wolves aren't mindless killing machines, they're intelligent, thoughtful, communicational creatures, just like, well, like most everything else. I can understand how a farmer would not tolerate wolves killing their livestock, but I'm trying to find out another way to solve it then a gun.

Oh, I disagree with aerial hunting as well. Not only is it a slow and painful death, as the shooters are often innacurate (not their fault, aiming a gun from a moving helicopter is a bit of a challenge, I'm sure), but it messes with natural selection. At least with ground hunting only the stupid/slow/old/sick ones die, thus being the greater good for both humans and wolves.

Ah, if only life were that easy. My client wishes to debate that matter. It's not a great economy at this point in time, and jobs aren't exactly falling out of the sky. Farmer Joe has been a rancher all his life-- this farm has been passed on for generations, and it's really all he knows how to do. Jobs are not easy to come by these days, especially not to ranchers in the middle of Montana/Idaho/wherever.

I'd like to quickly point out that I'm all for becoming better stewards of the Earth. We need to figure out ways to make less of an impact on the environment, as well as working towards harmony with animals. However (seems like there's always a catch, doesn't it?), when tooth comes to claw and we have families on the line, we will fight without rules for our survival. If a man needs to shoot wolves to ensure the safety of his loved ones, then he will shoot them.

Intelligent-- sure. Communicational-- alright. Thoughtful-- nope.

thought·ful   [thawt-fuhl]
adjective
1. showing consideration for others; considerate.

'Thoughtful' and other such synonyms are created by humans and thus may only be applied to humans. A wolf cannot be 'thoughtful' simply because it has no such concept, similarly, a dog cannot feel guilty, nor can a fish feel remorse.

I love wolves, and of course would never see them as bloodthirsty monsters XD S'pose it's why I joined this site-- lots of wolfies! :'D I do, however, recognize that they are predators, and, most importantly, oppurtunistic hunters. If I'm easier to kill than a deer I'm on the menu.

why did you join if you support wolf hunting?!

Supporting gray wolf hunting =/= OMG I HATE ALL WOLVES

Gray wolf hunting is beneficial to the species as well.

[Soruc]

Feel free to take me off the member's list as I support wolf hunting. You may keep me on if you wish, however.

why did you join if you support wolf hunting?!

Supporting wolf hunting doesn't mean I hate wolves. I joined because I support saving the endangered wolves.
Grey wolf hunting is needed in order to keep the species from overpopulating. If they overpopulated chances are we'd have families roaming our streets at one point.

[Dovahkiin]

^ I see your point, but wolves kill livestock because they and they're prey are being driven off their land because of human development. Wolves are animals. They don't know that -insert farm animal here- provides income for a family. They don't know that what they're doing is wrong in our eyes. A wolf just tries to survive. And if they aren't eating meat from the kill, then they're either training themselves, or training their pups.

Just my input. :3 Jumped in like Kat did... I'll jump back out now.

Then, in the same way, I don't see why we can't protect our standing in the food chain as well, why we can't fight against the wolves and coyotes and various other sundry (love that word, might be using it a lot now, look out) predators and keep our income safe. After all, we're trying to survive too here, are we not?

Aha! Conversation-hijackers, high five! I should start a club.

I'm back in again x3

We wouldn't have a food chain problem if humans didn't reproduce so much. We have trouble overpopulating, and some species of wolves have trouble populating at all. See, the government should stop spending billions on their stupid petty wars, and start building wolf reserves. Then, the wolves wouldn't eat livestock, and they'd be safe and begin to repopulate. Just put in some deer every now and then and everyone's happy.
EDIT: And if the wolf population in a certain reserve is too high, take some out and have a wolf hunt so all the haters could still hate and kill them.

[Soruc]

^ I see your point, but wolves kill livestock because they and they're prey are being driven off their land because of human development. Wolves are animals. They don't know that -insert farm animal here- provides income for a family. They don't know that what they're doing is wrong in our eyes. A wolf just tries to survive. And if they aren't eating meat from the kill, then they're either training themselves, or training their pups.

Just my input. :3 Jumped in like Kat did... I'll jump back out now.

Then, in the same way, I don't see why we can't protect our standing in the food chain as well, why we can't fight against the wolves and coyotes and various other sundry (love that word, might be using it a lot now, look out) predators and keep our income safe. After all, we're trying to survive too here, are we not?

Aha! Conversation-hijackers, high five! I should start a club.

I'm back in again x3

We wouldn't have a food chain problem if humans didn't reproduce so much. We have trouble overpopulating, and some species of wolves have trouble populating at all. See, the government should stop spending billions on their stupid petty wars, and start building wolf reserves. Then, the wolves wouldn't eat livestock, and they'd be safe and begin to repopulate. Just put in some deer every now and then and everyone's happy.
EDIT: And if the wolf population in a certain reserve is too high, take some out and have a wolf hunt so all the haters could still hate and kill them.

What makes you think that the government cares or will care a squat about wolves?
And you consider supporting wolf hunting hating wolves? Trolololol. That made my day.