❧ Rєι's Genetics Discussion and Calculation Thread ☙

[~HєуRєι~]

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Hey! My name is Rei and I have a long time special interest in coat genetics! While I am not a specialist or professional geneticist of any kind, I've done research over the years and feel I can give some accurate information if not pretty good guesses when looking at photos at the least! I do, however, have confidence in my ability to determine offspring between two parents! That is where this thread comes in!

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✿ What this thread is for ✿

❧ Asking me cat/dog genetic questions
❧ Asking me to determine a cat's/dog's coat based on a photo
❧ Asking me to determine the offspring between two cats/dogs
❧ Asking me to give a realistic version/description of a character
in media or your oc based on a visual or description
❧ Correcting or providing NEW genetic information with verified
referenceable resources

❀ What this thread IS NOT for ❀

❧ Answering questions directed towards me
❧ Asking for me to make full designs for free
❧ Asking for me to determine non cat/dog coats
❧ Unrelated topics not involved with genetics
❧ Requesting genetic guides/editables

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My Public Resources

❧ Cat/Dog Genetic Guides
❧ Family Tree Builders:Cat/Dog

Resources/Studies Others Have Shared Here

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When asking a question/request:

❧ Place the following code at the top of your post (not the title just the top!) to make it easier to see!


Code: Select all

[size=120][b]I have a question/request![/b][/size]


❧ Provide any photos/images you are wishing for me to reference. Please try to link them using the url coding to prevent image overload if possible! Try to provide multiple photos of the same animal at different angles/lighting for me to give the most accurate answer <3

❧ If no photos are provided, describe the coat/visual or genetic situation as best you can so I may provide an answer as accurate as I can!

❧ IF ASKING FOR OFFSPRING OPTIONS: Let me know if you would like a visual representation of the options! The colors used in my genetic guides will be used in place of no provided images or if the designs provided are too unrealistic to determine accurately.

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Reminder that I am not an expert and never will claim to be, but do want to provide public access to what typically is not easily accessible knowledge based on research! Especially to correct misconceptions or provide new information!

[~HєуRєι~]

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Spiritstar3 - Fawn Piebald + Black Piebald/Black Tanpoint Piebald Results
Spiritstar3 - How did this sibling turn out pointed when the other two aren't?
Spiritstar3 - Masked Black Saddle on Tan with Pseudo Irish + Black with Extreme Piebald Results
Spiritstar3 - Black Sable on Red with Pseudo Irish + Recessive Black/White
AKJE42 - What would Claude Cat's (Looney Tunes) phenotype and genotype be?
Spiritstar3 - Black Pseudo Irish + Liver Standard Merle with Extreme Piebald Results
Spiritstar3 - What is Red Merle?
Spiritstar3 - Blue Wild Agouti on Tan + White with Countershading
Spiritstar3 - Northern Domino Black Tanpoint on Tan with Pseudo Irish + Tan with Countershading
Spiritstar3 - Northern Domino Liver Tanpoint on Tan + Black Standard Merle with Harlequin Gene

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[~HєуRєι~]

reservation post in case its needed

[Spiritstar3]

We ARE allowed to post now, right?
I hope so.]

I have a question/request!

I believe Peanut is a Piebald or parti color, but I would like to ask:
What might her puppies look like with a chihuahua?
We don’t actually have a chihuahua, but my mom wants one, so I was just wondering if we’d ever bred her to a chihuahua, what the puppies would most likely come out as.

I’ll give two different colors for possible fathers since we don’t have a chihuahua, but if my mom were a different person maybe we would have bred the dog once.

Here’s art I did of Peanut so you can see what she looks like:

Forum/viewtopic.php?t=4713687

Forum/viewtopic.php?t=4896623

And then for the fathers in this scenario, I’d say black and white for one and brown tri color for another.
I just want to know what her pups might look like with either of those colors as the father (not that it’ll ever happen, but I’m just curious.)

[~HєуRєι~]

I have a question/request!
I believe Peanut is a Piebald or parti color, but I would like to ask:
What might her puppies look like with a chihuahua?
We don’t actually have a chihuahua, but my mom wants one, so I was just wondering if we’d ever bred her to a chihuahua, what the puppies would most likely come out as.

I’ll give two different colors for possible fathers since we don’t have a chihuahua, but if my mom were a different person maybe we would have bred the dog once.

Here’s art I did of Peanut so you can see what she looks like:

Forum/viewtopic.php?t=4713687

Forum/viewtopic.php?t=4896623

And then for the fathers in this scenario, I’d say black and white for one and brown tri color for another.
I just want to know what her pups might look like with either of those colors as the father (not that it’ll ever happen, but I’m just curious.)

For this scenario, I'm assuming Peanut is either Fawn with Piebald (recessive red, meaning no black on her outside of her nose/leathers and only has white whiskers) or Black Sable on Fawn with Piebald (meaning black DOES show up in her coat outside of her leathers) just based on the images of her you've drawn! Keep in mind "Parti Color" isn't a proper genetic term and is typically used when referring to a dog with piebald that does not have tanpoint (what makes them "Tri" in breeder terms), and that Fawn is another word for Tan/Red!

For now, we'll roll with Peanut being the former of the two options based on her images largely being pretty solid in color and even Recessive red dogs having that slight black nose pigment around their nose on their skin! Since I don't know her recessives as those would be based on her parents, I'll assume she carries sable as her dominant and tanpoint as her recessive making her agouti As/at. This is also assuming she isn't Dominant Black herself, as Recessive Red can hide even Dominant Black.

Peanut: Fawn with Piebald (Black Based, kyky, hidden As with at recessive)
Asat / BB / ee / kyky / SpSp
Father A: Dominant Black with Piebald White (Lets say recessive ky so not all the puppies are completely black, hidden As)
As / BB / E / Kbky / SpSp

Puppy Result: All puppies will have white! Depending on the level of the father, they could either go more extreme than Peanut or stay similar to the father's amount (or somewhere in-between), but ALL have white. 50% of puppies would show Dominant Black, 50% would show Black Sable! None would be Recessive Red but all would carry it in their recessives!

Peanut: Fawn with Piebald (Black Based, kyky, hidden As with at recessive)
Asat / BB / ee / kyky / SpSp
Father B: Black Tanpoint on Fawn with Piebald White
atat / BB / E / kyky / SpSp

Puppy Result: All puppies will have white! Depending on the level of the father, they could either go more extreme than Peanut or stay similar to the father's amount (or somewhere in-between), but ALL have white. 25% of the puppies would show Black Sable, 75% of the puppies would show Tanpoint! None would be Recessive Red but all would carry it in their recessives!

This is assuming neither father carries Recessive Red, and that Father A does not only have Dominant Black with no ky. If Father A only had dominant black, all puppies would appear to show Dominant Black, but all would be given the ky recessive.

[Spiritstar3]

I have a question/request!
I believe Peanut is a Piebald or parti color, but I would like to ask:
What might her puppies look like with a chihuahua?
We don’t actually have a chihuahua, but my mom wants one, so I was just wondering if we’d ever bred her to a chihuahua, what the puppies would most likely come out as.

I’ll give two different colors for possible fathers since we don’t have a chihuahua, but if my mom were a different person maybe we would have bred the dog once.

Here’s art I did of Peanut so you can see what she looks like:

Forum/viewtopic.php?t=4713687

Forum/viewtopic.php?t=4896623

And then for the fathers in this scenario, I’d say black and white for one and brown tri color for another.
I just want to know what her pups might look like with either of those colors as the father (not that it’ll ever happen, but I’m just curious.)

For this scenario, I'm assuming Peanut is either Fawn with Piebald (recessive red, meaning no black on her outside of her nose/leathers and only has white whiskers) or Black Sable on Fawn with Piebald (meaning black DOES show up in her coat outside of her leathers) just based on the images of her you've drawn! Keep in mind "Parti Color" isn't a proper genetic term and is typically used when referring to a dog with piebald that does not have tanpoint (what makes them "Tri" in breeder terms), and that Fawn is another word for Tan/Red!

For now, we'll roll with Peanut being the former of the two options based on her images largely being pretty solid in color and even Recessive red dogs having that slight black nose pigment around their nose on their skin! Since I don't know her recessives as those would be based on her parents, I'll assume she carries sable as her dominant and tanpoint as her recessive making her agouti As/at. This is also assuming she isn't Dominant Black herself, as Recessive Red can hide even Dominant Black.[/quote]

Breaking this up to make it easier since it’s a big post.
She actually does have black, like just on her nose/snout, but it also shows on her belly and legs. I think that’s under the fur though maybe. Her whiskers are actually black but she may have a few white ones.
Ooo gosh, Kay, I’ll stop using parti color as a term then.

Kay kay. That makes sense to me. She had one black and white or black tan point and white brother, I’m not sure if there were others but there was at least one so I assume that means she’s a black carrier then.

Peanut: Fawn with Piebald (Black Based, kyky, hidden As with at recessive)
Asat / BB / ee / kyky / SpSp
Father A: Dominant Black with Piebald White (Lets say recessive ky so not all the puppies are completely black, hidden As)
As / BB / E / Kbky / SpSp

Puppy Result: All puppies will have white! Depending on the level of the father, they could either go more extreme than Peanut or stay similar to the father's amount (or somewhere in-between), but ALL have white. 50% of puppies would show Dominant Black, 50% would show Black Sable! None would be Recessive Red but all would carry it in their recessives!

Peanut: Fawn with Piebald (Black Based, kyky, hidden As with at recessive)
Asat / BB / ee / kyky / SpSp
Father B: Black Tanpoint on Fawn with Piebald White
atat / BB / E / kyky / SpSp

Puppy Result: All puppies will have white! Depending on the level of the father, they could either go more extreme than Peanut or stay similar to the father's amount (or somewhere in-between), but ALL have white. 25% of the puppies would show Black Sable, 75% of the puppies would show Tanpoint! None would be Recessive Red but all would carry it in their recessives!

This is assuming neither father carries Recessive Red, and that Father A does not only have Dominant Black with no ky. If Father A only had dominant black, all puppies would appear to show Dominant Black, but all would be given the ky recessive.

Ooo, I love these results. Now I’m going to have to look up what black sable looks like.

This is so interesting. I wish we could have actually bred her…but alas, my mom wouldn’t do that.
Still, it’s interesting to know what her pups with a black piebald or black tan point on Fawn with piebald could have looked like.


(I actually made a dog character based off her and gave said character a puppy but then deleted the characters…
Maybe I should do that again.)

Thank you for answering! I want to post the art I did of my cat so you can see him, but I think I already tried asking you about what color/pattern he’d actually be considered and if he could actually be considered a calico or not. Would you want to see the drawings of him?

(I have pictures but apparently I’m not allowed to post them because of the site they’re on…
So we’ll have to make do with my art)

[~HєуRєι~]

@Spiritstar3 Ofc! If you want to know any questions about his coat ofc you can ask <3 <3 I've seen him around on here in your posts I believe!

If she does show black markings/darker markings on her elsewhere then she'd be Black Sable on Fawn with Piebald for sure- it doesn't actually change the coat determinations funnily enough! just means the puppies don't hold recessive for Recessive Red <3

[Spiritstar3]

@Spiritstar3 Ofc! If you want to know any questions about his coat ofc you can ask <3 <3 I've seen him around on here in your posts I believe!

If she does show black markings/darker markings on her elsewhere then she'd be Black Sable on Fawn with Piebald for sure- it doesn't actually change the coat determinations funnily enough! just means the puppies don't hold recessive for Recessive Red <3

XD cool.
Here he is (you probably have, if you’ve been in my gallery. I also had an SCS custom based off him.)
He’s the white and minimal blue tabby one in all the pictures. Though his brother is in one of the two avatars.

Ignore the chinchillas and Peanut and other cats

I think I posted this one above for Peanut, but yeah

Icon one

Icon two

Ooo! Actually, I could ask about his sister since she’s in that one picture. So…how did he end up with one sister that was Snowshoe looking? If two fathers can’t actually father the same litter, would the father have been some sort of Snowshoe tabby mix or something, then? We only had the mother and the kittens, and no one ever saw the males but they knew this cat was pregnant every year. So we had Billy and Storm (both white with blue tabby), the snowshoe girl and the Tiger/Tabitha (she looks brown tabby but maybe she’s actually blue tabby. She’s a spotted tabby.)


As for Peanut, awesome. I think it’s just on her snout, but if the belly and leg markings count then maybe. They really do look like they might be part of her skin though, they’re like little spotty marks. She DOES have random black hairs that keep coming out of her coat though. I’ll randomly find black hairs in there.


Would I be able to post fictional characters on here?
Like, animal characters I’ve created but they don’t exist in real life.
I’d be interested to know what colors and patterns they can produce.
Though most are same sex pairs.

[~HєуRєι~]

@Spiritstar3 Ofc! If you want to know any questions about his coat ofc you can ask <3 <3 I've seen him around on here in your posts I believe!

If she does show black markings/darker markings on her elsewhere then she'd be Black Sable on Fawn with Piebald for sure- it doesn't actually change the coat determinations funnily enough! just means the puppies don't hold recessive for Recessive Red <3

XD cool.
Here he is (you probably have, if you’ve been in my gallery. I also had an SCS custom based off him.)
He’s the white and minimal blue tabby one in all the pictures. Though his brother is in one of the two avatars.

Ignore the chinchillas and Peanut and other cats

I think I posted this one above for Peanut, but yeah

Icon one

Icon two

Ooo! Actually, I could ask about his sister since she’s in that one picture. So…how did he end up with one sister that was Snowshoe looking? If two fathers can’t actually father the same litter, would the father have been some sort of Snowshoe tabby mix or something, then? We only had the mother and the kittens, and no one ever saw the males but they knew this cat was pregnant every year. So we had Billy and Storm (both white with blue tabby), the snowshoe girl and the Tiger/Tabitha (she looks brown tabby but maybe she’s actually blue tabby. She’s a spotted tabby.)


As for Peanut, awesome. I think it’s just on her snout, but if the belly and leg markings count then maybe. They really do look like they might be part of her skin though, they’re like little spotty marks. She DOES have random black hairs that keep coming out of her coat though. I’ll randomly find black hairs in there.


Would I be able to post fictional characters on here?
Like, animal characters I’ve created but they don’t exist in real life.
I’d be interested to know what colors and patterns they can produce.
Though most are same sex pairs.

Always love seeing Stormy! <3

So…how did he end up with one sister that was Snowshoe looking? If two fathers can’t actually father the same litter, would the father have been some sort of Snowshoe tabby mix or something, then? We only had the mother and the kittens, and no one ever saw the males but they knew this cat was pregnant every year. So we had Billy and Storm (both white with blue tabby), the snowshoe girl and the Tiger/Tabitha (she looks brown tabby but maybe she’s actually blue tabby. She’s a spotted tabby.)

Pretty easy explanation honestly! Most likely either both parents have recessive cs (the gene determining the cat to be Colorpoint) or the father is Colorpoint AND the mother carries cs. If it was only the one kitten that ended up pointed, the former is the more likely- but if there were others in the litter then the latter is more likely. Colorpoint is one of those things that can be carried around in feral populations pretty frequently, and isn't only limited to selective breeding! The tabby part would mean if mom is not tabby, dad would have to be- BUT if mom is tabby, she would just have to carry recessive solid for at least one kitten to not be born with tabby, and dad would not have to be tabby!

As for the black hairs on peanut- Black hairs appearing sparsly would indicate she IS Sable, just a very light one! Recessive Red doesn't allow any black hairs, including stray hairs, from appearing!

As for fictional characters, absolutely feel free to! Just try to separate the requests/questions with the necessary coding on the first post to make it easier for me to keep things organized! The only kind of pair I wouldn't be able to properly determine based on real genetics would be a tortoiseshell x tortoiseshell litter (including calico x calico and other such variants) due to that being a female only trait that causes genetics to get a bit weird in red inheritance.

[Spiritstar3]

@Spiritstar3 Ofc! If you want to know any questions about his coat ofc you can ask <3 <3 I've seen him around on here in your posts I believe!

If she does show black markings/darker markings on her elsewhere then she'd be Black Sable on Fawn with Piebald for sure- it doesn't actually change the coat determinations funnily enough! just means the puppies don't hold recessive for Recessive Red <3

XD cool.
Here he is (you probably have, if you’ve been in my gallery. I also had an SCS custom based off him.)
He’s the white and minimal blue tabby one in all the pictures. Though his brother is in one of the two avatars.

Ignore the chinchillas and Peanut and other cats

I think I posted this one above for Peanut, but yeah

Icon one

Icon two

Ooo! Actually, I could ask about his sister since she’s in that one picture. So…how did he end up with one sister that was Snowshoe looking? If two fathers can’t actually father the same litter, would the father have been some sort of Snowshoe tabby mix or something, then? We only had the mother and the kittens, and no one ever saw the males but they knew this cat was pregnant every year. So we had Billy and Storm (both white with blue tabby), the snowshoe girl and the Tiger/Tabitha (she looks brown tabby but maybe she’s actually blue tabby. She’s a spotted tabby.)


As for Peanut, awesome. I think it’s just on her snout, but if the belly and leg markings count then maybe. They really do look like they might be part of her skin though, they’re like little spotty marks. She DOES have random black hairs that keep coming out of her coat though. I’ll randomly find black hairs in there.


Would I be able to post fictional characters on here?
Like, animal characters I’ve created but they don’t exist in real life.
I’d be interested to know what colors and patterns they can produce.
Though most are same sex pairs.

Always love seeing Stormy! <3

XD thank you. He unfortunately passed away like two or so years ago…but I have his ashes and his bowl and also the art I did of him, so I’m okay.

So…how did he end up with one sister that was Snowshoe looking? If two fathers can’t actually father the same litter, would the father have been some sort of Snowshoe tabby mix or something, then? We only had the mother and the kittens, and no one ever saw the males but they knew this cat was pregnant every year. So we had Billy and Storm (both white with blue tabby), the snowshoe girl and the Tiger/Tabitha (she looks brown tabby but maybe she’s actually blue tabby. She’s a spotted tabby.)

Pretty easy explanation honestly! Most likely either both parents have recessive cs (the gene determining the cat to be Colorpoint) or the father is Colorpoint AND the mother carries cs. If it was only the one kitten that ended up pointed, the former is the more likely- but if there were others in the litter then the latter is more likely. Colorpoint is one of those things that can be carried around in feral populations pretty frequently, and isn't only limited to selective breeding! The tabby part would mean if mom is not tabby, dad would have to be- BUT if mom is tabby, she would just have to carry recessive solid for at least one kitten to not be born with tabby, and dad would not have to be tabby!

As for the black hairs on peanut- Black hairs appearing sparsly would indicate she IS Sable, just a very light one! Recessive Red doesn't allow any black hairs, including stray hairs, from appearing!

As for fictional characters, absolutely feel free to! Just try to separate the requests/questions with the necessary coding on the first post to make it easier for me to keep things organized! The only kind of pair I wouldn't be able to properly determine based on real genetics would be a tortoiseshell x tortoiseshell litter (including calico x calico and other such variants) due to that being a female only trait that causes genetics to get a bit weird in red inheritance.

Yeah, the one sister was the only colorpoint. Since there were only four kittens in that litter. Three of which my parents ended up keeping because they are absolutely insane. Just kidding. They kept Storm for me, then the majority of my family (my parents and my brother, in other words) liked Tiger so she got kept, and then Billy was also kept.
For all I know, there could have been colorpoints in the supposed litters before this litter, but I have no idea.
I actually can’t remember. My mom thinks the female cat was tabby, but I don’t remember the female cat being tabby but maybe I’m just remembering wrong. She could have maybe just had really faint tabby markings or something.

XD thanks for telling me that. I noticed a black hair in her coat one day and thought it was odd, but with your explanation here now it makes sense.

Ooo XD Kay.


I have a question/request!

What kind of colors/patterns would these two make?

Independence and new mate

He’s meant to be a Shepherd mix. Those can be Fawn though, right?


I have a question/request!

What kind of colors/patterns would these three make?

Bottom picture, they have a pumpkin but it looks like a basketball…It’s the floppy eared red dog with darker ears. Than the two shepherds.

You can ignore the chihuahua, I want to know what a black shepherd could make with a red and darker dog, and what a white Shepherd could make with a red and darker dog. I feel like they could make red, since it would be a mixed breed and not a pure Shepherd then.

If it helps you identify him, it says Mahogany next to him. Then the two Shepherd dogs are pretty obvious.