Deleting nons - A new trading system proposal

[Solloby]

I can agree both terms are confusing but I don't know what we would replace them with as for the normal release dogs trading for UR pets we had this as far back in 2012 when I joined the game. Sunjewel was the highest value pet on the site along with the UR tiger dog

Yep, I remember! It was totally valid then. I'm just wondering if that's changed since then given we've had well over a decade of rereleases. Are they still that rare compared to the URs? I'm not convinced that they are personally, but I just don't know the answer.

[sun]

I think this really highlights the issue with using terms like "non" and "ma" in a trading system. I don't think a non is worth 1 non, but we can't even begin to have that kind of discussion as long as Non is considered a trading term as well. Perhaps the popularity of the 08 dogs keeps them higher in value compared to the URs that are so much rarer than them. Perhaps not, but we can't even consider their values as long as they are used as a standard measure for trading. Using "Mid Advent" as a trading term has the same issues. Also Black Advent is technically a MA, but it isn't valued at 1 MA. Both terms are problematic imo.

I agree the term ma has the same issue, it’s also meaningless now but least it’s only one layer to learn. It also allows us to not have to assign new numbers 1 non = 10 ma. If we just use ma then 10 ma already has a value we understand and can build from rather than completely and utterly restarting

We will never know the exact ins and outs of what puts a pet where on the value scale but it’s been this way for a while, I’m not to sure how you mean the BA is technically an ma but isn’t valued at an ma? It hasn’t traded for an ma for a long time now so I don’t see how it could still technically be an ma when let’s be fair if anyone tried to say that, it would be the one time we can actually get support as it would be a scam.

No matter the demand, age, rarity tag whatever. Pets have their set value as a combination of all these things. No matter where they started this is where they are now. Pets that have especially poor demand do so as people are trying to squeeze more value out than they’re worth as they’re stuck in brackets to high for them and we haven’t had the conversation about lowering them/splitting values to account for this yet

I can agree both terms are confusing but I don't know what we would replace them with as for the normal release dogs trading for UR pets we had this as far back in 2012 when I joined the game. Sunjewel was the highest value pet on the site along with the UR tiger dog

Yep, I remember! It was totally valid then. I'm just wondering if that's changed since then given we've had well over a decade of rereleases. Are they still that rare compared to the URs? I'm not convinced that they are personally, but I just don't know the answer.

Honestly what would help is something that’s never been offered formally, a list of how many of each pet are available in active accounts. Sure there’s player made trackers for stores/omgsr but it’s only people who can be bothered who put their pets there and no telling how many of them are now inactive


There’s so many pets released each year, in specific quantities. Someone somewhere is working out how many of each pet needs to go back in to top up the numbers from the years losses players/accounts to keep the supply even

If the supply was weighted I think as heavily as you’re imagining then I understand why the issue with values is how it is for you but the supply is kept pretty steady. We only see real change when there’s demand spikes currently

We see a lot less 08 blanket dogs (with non variants) than we do urs being released. This keeps their demand higher as the supply is slower

[Solloby]

We will never know the exact ins and outs of what puts a pet where on the value scale but it’s been this way for a while, I’m not to sure how you mean the BA is technically an ma but isn’t valued at an ma? It hasn’t traded for an ma for a long time now so I don’t see how it could still technically be an ma when let’s be fair if anyone tried to say that, it would be the one time we can actually get support as it would be a scam.

MA (Mid Advent) typically refers to the 3rd litter here which includes Black Advent in the litter. Technically it's a "MA" in terms of the litter, NOT the trading system valuation. This is the confusion I am talking about. The Mid Advent dogs are a bit of a problematic litter to choose for a value system term for this reason.

We see a lot less 08 blanket dogs (with non variants) than we do urs being released. This keeps their demand higher as the supply is slower

That would be because there are so many URs in the game now? I was under the assumption that individual URs were released in lower amounts compared to individual 08 dogs. But I don't know that for sure.

[himarry 124]

We will never know the exact ins and outs of what puts a pet where on the value scale but it’s been this way for a while, I’m not to sure how you mean the BA is technically an ma but isn’t valued at an ma? It hasn’t traded for an ma for a long time now so I don’t see how it could still technically be an ma when let’s be fair if anyone tried to say that, it would be the one time we can actually get support as it would be a scam.

MA (Mid Advent) typically refers to the 3rd litter here which includes Black Advent in the litter. Technically it's a "MA" in terms of the litter, NOT the trading system valuation. This is the confusion I am talking about. The Mid Advent dogs are a bit of a problematic litter to choose for a value system term for this reason.

We see a lot less 08 blanket dogs (with non variants) than we do urs being released. This keeps their demand higher as the supply is slower

That would be because there are so many URs in the game now? I was under the assumption that individual URs were released in lower amounts compared to individual 08 dogs. But I don't know that for sure.

To be fair a majority of the player base uses MA as a throw away term it no longer refers to those dogs because majority of newer players when asking what's a ma get told just a unit of measurement

[lil rascal]

I agree 100% with what Solloby has said on the last few pages. If the term Non is an issue than so is MA. The terms are no longer relevant to the litters they used to refer to.

Do we really see less ‘08 blanket dogs or is it simply that Dec 18 awareness has spread and most are not traded until grown these days? I see many grown recent years released ‘08 blanket dogs in trading groups when I look.

No matter the demand, age, rarity tag whatever. Pets have their set value as a combination of all these things. No matter where they started this is where they are now. Pets that have especially poor demand do so as people are trying to squeeze more value out than they’re worth as they’re stuck in brackets to high for them and we haven’t had the conversation about lowering them/splitting values to account for this yet

Actually demand, age and rarity is what used to try to be taken into account, these days it is purely word of mouth demand and abnormal overpay that is being used to set values. That’s why we have super rare pets like the UR Peas down at 0.5 Nons and quite common pets like the August PPS and BA up at a Non+.

Horror has done an admirable job trying to create a working trading system but relying so heavily on trade fluctuations and demand word of mouth over anything else to try to set a pets value has led to a system as broken (if not more so) than the original list.

[sunka]

here’s the issue in my eyes. demand is pretty much the only thing that matters. that may make some upset, but if we are being honest it’s the truth. it doesn’t matter what a pet looks like, what its species is, what year it was released, if it does not have demand then it likely will be harder to trade away than something that does have demand. our current list is out of date. and that is to no fault of its creator, as i am in 100% agreement that horror does an amazing job and the list is a nice tool. however, i don’t even use the list anymore. i rely solely on trading data because that is the only way at the moment to actually know what something is worth. that is why i believe the list should be updated to reflect accurate and current trading trends, and should absolutely take demand more into account.

when it comes to nons and ma’s, i don’t care as much what measure is used. at this point, they are terms for trading to me more than they reference a specific litter the pets came from. the way i trade is the exact way i have said on this thread. i shift the decimal and everything makes sense.

1 non = 1 ma = 10 old rares = 2000 c$

no matter what value a pet has, i stick to this for conversions and i do not overpay. i simply shift the decimal lower or higher to make sure whoever i am trading with gets a fair trade, as do i. the issue we have in this economy on cs is not going to be fixed overnight, and it is not going to be fixed with one change. it is going to take time and multiple changes to even get on the right path. but staying where we are right now will continue us down this road of the best pets become unobtainable for the general player while the lower demand pets become all that’s left because everything else has been swept up.

what i want to come out of this is to make trading easier. and to make the list and values make sense. to make it so the average person doesn’t need to check 2-3 separate threads and get three opinions for a high value trade because the information they need is located in one guide that moves and changes with demand and the economy. so that people who joined this site recently have as much of a chance to get their dream pets and understand how to trade valuable pets as the people who have been doing it for 10+ years. allowing things to stay as they are is how the rares list became an issue, eventually shut down, and ended up with the list we use now. if we refuse to at least entertain the idea that there are issues and they need to be addressed we seriously are running out of time to rein in the value pushing before pets become out of hand and too expensive to trade.

all of this is coming from someone who is done with list trading. i got my one huge expensive dream pet, i have no reason to push ideas for a self serving motive. i’ve just been around too long and want to keep the conversations flowing so hopefully something does come of these discussions.

[Bluefly26799]

here’s the issue in my eyes. demand is pretty much the only thing that matters. that may make some upset, but if we are being honest it’s the truth. it doesn’t matter what a pet looks like, what its species is, what year it was released, if it does not have demand then it likely will be harder to trade away than something that does have demand. our current list is out of date. and that is to no fault of its creator, as i am in 100% agreement that horror does an amazing job and the list is a nice tool. however, i don’t even use the list anymore. i rely solely on trading data because that is the only way at the moment to actually know what something is worth. that is why i believe the list should be updated to reflect accurate and current trading trends, and should absolutely take demand more into account.

when it comes to nons and ma’s, i don’t care as much what measure is used. at this point, they are terms for trading to me more than they reference a specific litter the pets came from. the way i trade is the exact way i have said on this thread. i shift the decimal and everything makes sense.

1 non = 1 ma = 10 old rares = 2000 c$

no matter what value a pet has, i stick to this for conversions and i do not overpay. i simply shift the decimal lower or higher to make sure whoever i am trading with gets a fair trade, as do i. the issue we have in this economy on cs is not going to be fixed overnight, and it is not going to be fixed with one change. it is going to take time and multiple changes to even get on the right path. but staying where we are right now will continue us down this road of the best pets become unobtainable for the general player while the lower demand pets become all that’s left because everything else has been swept up.

what i want to come out of this is to make trading easier. and to make the list and values make sense. to make it so the average person doesn’t need to check 2-3 separate threads and get three opinions for a high value trade because the information they need is located in one guide that moves and changes with demand and the economy. so that people who joined this site recently have as much of a chance to get their dream pets and understand how to trade valuable pets as the people who have been doing it for 10+ years. allowing things to stay as they are is how the rares list became an issue, eventually shut down, and ended up with the list we use now. if we refuse to at least entertain the idea that there are issues and they need to be addressed we seriously are running out of time to rein in the value pushing before pets become out of hand and too expensive to trade.

all of this is coming from someone who is done with list trading. i got my one huge expensive dream pet, i have no reason to push ideas for a self serving motive. i’ve just been around too long and want to keep the conversations flowing so hopefully something does come of these discussions.

I don’t think I could have said this better myself. I agree wholeheartedly with everything here. Whatever new system or guide is created must be maintained never just by individual in my opinion either

I fully agree demand is a huge driving factor, I’ve always said value = supply + demand. This is like a swing, if supply’s are low thanks to a hoarder this spikes demand, same as if demand is low there seems like an over supply as everyone is trying to shift it. Age, date, litter, artist, rarity tag, store pet all these extra ways people think value should be equated to just simply how it’s currently working

As a community we’re already following the system I’m suggesting I think but just unspoken and in an ambiguous way that can be worked for someone else’s gain.


I’ll be totally frank and honest I’m old and tired now. I’ve spend years turning a profit like it’s nothing while remaining fair using the current system and even now I know how to do it in a heartbeat even while being fair to the new ma system I’m proposing. I’d rather we implement something that makes it more of a challenge to earn profit BUT makes trading more accessible to all

[sunka]

personally, i would suggest we implement a spreadsheet like many other guides or references have. have a couple people who know and understand list trading AND demand work with horror (if they wanted to be involved considering they do such an amazing job already) that have access to editing, so it is not up to just one individual to make updates or decisions and have a thread to propose changes. the new sheet should utilize trading data because that makes sense. at this point, we have years worth of trading data for the most expensive and regularly traded pets. so it would be smart to start with what we have, look at the trading data, and adjust values lower first to make things more stable. anything with limited trading data, leave where it is for now but be open to move it later. anything with crazy inflated demand, clearly list its current demand but also its normal value and give it a few months before it’s moved.

i truly think having a list that’s 1) able to be edited by more than one person (who obviously is fully vetted, knows what their doing and consults whoever else is on the working team before making changes)
2) fluid and moves with demand and trading trends
and 3) makes sense given current economy
is better than just saying the list is good enough and there’s no reason to change it when we’re working off some
values that are 5 years old at this point and need to be adjusted.

[Bluefly26799]

personally, i would suggest we implement a spreadsheet like many other guides or references have. have a couple people who know and understand list trading AND demand work with horror (if they wanted to be involved considering they do such an amazing job already) that have access to editing, so it is not up to just one individual to make updates or decisions and have a thread to propose changes. the new sheet should utilize trading data because that makes sense. at this point, we have years worth of trading data for the most expensive and regularly traded pets. so it would be smart to start with what we have, look at the trading data, and adjust values lower first to make things more stable. anything with limited trading data, leave where it is for now but be open to move it later. anything with crazy inflated demand, clearly list its current demand but also its normal value and give it a few months before it’s moved.

i truly think having a list that’s 1) able to be edited by more than one person (who obviously is fully vetted, knows what their doing and consults whoever else is on the working team before making changes)
2) fluid and moves with demand and trading trends
and 3) makes sense given current economy
is better than just saying the list is good enough and there’s no reason to change it when we’re working off some
values that are 5 years old at this point and need to be adjusted.

This is what I’d be suggesting, I’ve started working on an google spreadsheet but took a break over the holidays. It’s something I can easily share with people I know understand current values but an official committee as it were would be ideal as demand and values is honestly something you experience as much as find data on. I’ll be looking at sharing this soon here for people to preview before making any official thread/post with a list so people can take a rough look before I have to add lots of coding to a post lmao


I’m not sure how we vet people per say as to who should be able to make the choices, there’s people I know who understand the current trading climate and people I know that don’t. Who makes the choice that we know what we’re doing? I like to think people who are actually in the upper list trading community know me and know I actually do know what I’m talking about in this space

[angst]

personally, i would suggest we implement a spreadsheet like many other guides or references have. have a couple people who know and understand list trading AND demand work with horror (if they wanted to be involved considering they do such an amazing job already) that have access to editing, so it is not up to just one individual to make updates or decisions and have a thread to propose changes. the new sheet should utilize trading data because that makes sense. at this point, we have years worth of trading data for the most expensive and regularly traded pets. so it would be smart to start with what we have, look at the trading data, and adjust values lower first to make things more stable. anything with limited trading data, leave where it is for now but be open to move it later. anything with crazy inflated demand, clearly list its current demand but also its normal value and give it a few months before it’s moved.

i truly think having a list that’s 1) able to be edited by more than one person (who obviously is fully vetted, knows what their doing and consults whoever else is on the working team before making changes)
2) fluid and moves with demand and trading trends
and 3) makes sense given current economy
is better than just saying the list is good enough and there’s no reason to change it when we’re working off some
values that are 5 years old at this point and need to be adjusted.

*Inserts yet another plug for Princess of Lion's OMGSR poll sheet, which can be sorted by: (1) rarity heavy value (2) demand heavy value and (3) mix of both* ❤️

Not suggesting we use that exact one as it has no trade data or values, but I think it's an incredible concept for a new trading system.

Something like the above + trade data would be unstoppable lol