Doing something about Ninjaing/Scamming. [Poll Added!]

[Lanayru]

I wish instead of handwaving it away the mods would ACTUALLY address this: when the same user is reported for attempting to ninja and posting incorrect values in the trade help threads, WHY IS NOTHING BEING DONE? Why is it suddenly "uwu subjective" when the whole point of those threads is to help users make fair, informed decisions BASED ON POPULAR VALUES?

Sorry if this sounds harsh but it genuinely makes me kind of sick that the staff team is more concerned about protecting repeat offenders than listening to REPEATED user reports. I'm a longtime user and genuinely considering at least a break because quite frankly it does not feel y'all are actually listening or care about the issue.

[far]

When I joined I was also a kid, but I struggled with rarity and trading. I would try to research for help. For example if I had a pale blue spotted advent dog that I was trying to trade, I firstly wouldn't even know what it was even called and have would to spend time looking through forums for a picture of the dog and someone who wrote it's name next to it(which felt like it took forever). Then I would have to find someone else's post with the pet in question asking the same question I'm asking (which sometimes wasn't even possible). And if I didn't find anything I would just trade it for what I thought it was worth, which was often very wrong. I'm partially saying this because it often wasn't a fun process and I can't image every kid does this.

[Dingo Berry]

Here's the thing: there is so much for children/new players to learn because people want to be "right" about values and break things down into tiny percentages of a pet. This is an illusion of fairness because no one besides Nick knows, and, as Seasonal said, what we do know is we're absolutely wrong about pretty much all values because they are intentionally subjective, both by the site not releasing numbers and people inflating the value of pets they like more. It is literally impossible to value something as ".25 nons" because there is no set value of a non OR what specific pet would equal a quarter of it, and if that person you're trading even wants said pet.

I saw a post (I can't find it right this second, sorry) on this thread that basically said the Fair Trade Thread or the Pet Worth Thread is a place for users to discuss and give opinions. That's not what I see in posts. I see someone say "These are worth 3-4 '09 rares or 150-200 C$" and someone reply to them "No it's 2-3 '09 rares and no more than $150 CS, don't give false advice." There are people who think they are right and act as if they are right when that is not the case because value is subjective. If we did get trade moderators, that's what I want them looking out for, because these two people in my example /literally agree/ with each other, so how could the advice be false? There is overlap in their opinions. If these opinions can't coexist, we cannot direct users to these threads for trade advice, because they are upholding the idea that there is one true value.

If we knew for real how rare some of the "most valuable" pets were, all trades would be unfair in retrospect. We cannot define a "fair" trade by value beyond rarity bars and /maybe/ the rarity changes archive (though rereleases will mess with this) and if the person accepting the trade was happy with it. Of course we want that person to be given access to resources, but if they don't want to use them they're not required to. Those must be the metric because there is nothing else real to go by. Finding out about someone else's values after the fact does not make a UR Pineapple for a UR Cinnabun on December 18th, 2016 an unfair trade.

(the following statement is not meant to inspire pity, but I am allowed to have feelings lol)
How do I know this? Because that was the trade that made me stop sending valuable trades. People's reaction to me completing that trade was the end because I knew nothing could ever be truly "fair," and as a staff member, I am required to be fair. I am fine with this because I am actively choosing to remain staff instead of being a regular player.

Bottom line, I love CS, and I want people to be able to have fun. If we require every trade to be "fair" and allow anyone to be called a "scammer" for sending an "unfair" trade, we would have to adopt some standard valuation. I promise you I and others think every single thing that is codified into CS rules through to the fullest extent. The new DNI List rule (just posted today, but not written today) was a workshop of several weeks taking everything possible into consideration. I am happy to look for ways to meet the goal of accessibility to information about people's opinions about trading values, but they are still opinions and cannot be enforced.

Finally, I want to clarify that I think FTT/Pet Worth Thread linked on trade pages could be a good idea (with rule changes to address my problems above, perhaps a rename to "opinions on trades" and "discuss pet values" or something? less focus on "report false advice" and just allow people to disagree unless they're saying "the UR Tiger can be traded for 3 random rares"?) as this addresses the main core of the problem (accessibility) from two angles: making the threads more visible, and making values less concrete so people are less hesitant to trade.

SUPPORT

[Halsie]

^ Yeah, I feel like since quite a few users have reported the same user known for scamming, that user shouldn’t be able to trade or SOMETHING.

One thing I would also like to add is that I know quite a few people who have been scammed(ninja’d) by the same user(s) and they reported it as well. Since multiple people have reported certain users who have scammed, why are these users still on the site? I think it’s obvious if you’re getting multiple reports about the same individual that clearly they are the problem and something should be done. I hope that didn’t come across as harsh, I’m just confused as to why certain known scammers are still around and are still scamming.

Also, I never see any staff helping out in the “is this a fair trade?” thread. I don’t see why a Trade Moderator would be deemed as useless. They’d be very helpful. I just don’t see any staff getting involved with trades and such, I just assumed they weren’t knowledgeable in that area and that’s why they don’t reply to that thread. It would just be nice to have staff specialized in that area only especially because trading is a huge part of the site.

[Halsie]

What about... the person who scams & gets themselves reported with proof has a trading grace period where they cannot send trades/receive trades with rare+ pets (waiting trades would NOT be grandfathered in, and instead cancelled.) for a maximum of 48 hours? Something needs to be done.

This would be great for first time reported offenders, IMO. I think after their second time of scamming, maybe two weeks of being suspended from trading or just ban them and also reverse the trades in which they scammed people. However, I think they still need to deal with the active scammers who have been reported by more than one person.

[Lacuna]

Users can report their own trade they received that they felt violated the rules by clicking report on the trade sender's profile. Staff can see the trade messages along with any other public or private (if PMs are also reported) interaction regarding the trade, and evaluate the situation to determine if it met the current rules criteria of a scam. If it does, the trade can be reversed and/or (if not completed) the user warned. Repeat offenses may lead to bans.

However, it has always been our policy not to accept third-party reports on private interactions like trades, PMs, or offsite problems. This is because other users cannot report those trades with any unbiased knowledge of the situation because trade usernames and messages are private to users. You don't even know if the user you're reporting for sure sent the reported trade. If you're reporting a user you think is scamming but you weren't involved, there isn't much credibility to your report. And once again, I want to clarify that without messages you are reporting this user for "ninja" trading, not "scamming" because you do not know if a scam occurred.

[Lanayru]

Users can report their own trade they received that they felt violated the rules by clicking report on the trade sender's profile. Staff can see the trade messages along with any other public or private (if PMs are also reported) interaction regarding the trade, and evaluate the situation to determine if it met the current rules criteria of a scam.

However, it has always been our policy not to accept third-party reports on private interactions like trades, PMs, or offsite problems. This is because other users cannot report those trades with any unbiased knowledge of the situation because trade usernames and messages are private to users. You don't even know if the user you're reporting for sure sent the reported trade. If you're reporting a user you think is scamming but you weren't involved, there isn't much credibility to your report. And once again, I want to clarify that without messages you are reporting this user for "ninja" trading, not "scamming" because you do not know if a scam occurred.

That's great! But still does not address what I said. I know FIRSTHAND several users who have gotten scammed and subsequently reported an user - that user is still actively trading and posting their deliberate unfair trades as fact. Why has the staff team not acted on this or even reversed trades? I will politely keep grilling you on this because it feels you are dodging on answering it or willingly misinterpreting me and other users - I hope I'm incorrect on that part though.

[Halsie]

Users can report their own trade they received that they felt violated the rules by clicking report on the trade sender's profile. Staff can see the trade messages along with any other public or private (if PMs are also reported) interaction regarding the trade, and evaluate the situation to determine if it met the current rules criteria of a scam. If it does, the trade can be reversed and/or (if not completed) the user warned. Repeat offenses may lead to bans.

However, it has always been our policy not to accept third-party reports on private interactions like trades, PMs, or offsite problems. This is because other users cannot report those trades with any unbiased knowledge of the situation because trade usernames and messages are private to users. You don't even know if the user you're reporting for sure sent the reported trade. If you're reporting a user you think is scamming but you weren't involved, there isn't much credibility to your report. And once again, I want to clarify that without messages you are reporting this user for "ninja" trading, not "scamming" because you do not know if a scam occurred.

These users that I speak of DID report it on their own. They even have screenshots and nothing was resolved. I’m not reporting for anyone, they all reported these things themselves and nothing was done which is why we are upset and rightfully so. Literally no one has reported someone else’s issue so I’m not sure what you’re going on about. I still don’t understand how if multiple people are reporting the same user for scamming, how is that user still around.

[goroustail]

i'm sorry but trading on CS has gotten so tiresome & this game is started to not feel fun anymore because there's people trying to ninja you out of your pets or severely inflate prices/scamming. honestly i feels it's difficult & tedious to learn values of pets because it's gotten so confusing. no one has the time for that if i'm being serious? most of us have a job or school & i really thought this game was just a fun little trading game to collect pixel pets but a lot of players are just extremely greedy now. i've been playing for awhile & the values of pets still confuse me & i really do not have the time for that as i have school and other things. i understand people have paid actual money for their pets & crap but at the end of the day it's literally pixels on a screen. there's no real reason to ninja others out of their pets. it's disappointing that no one cares enough & it's really not hard to find someone to moderate the trades.

[Nicnova]

I must agree with what Halsie and Falorni are saying above. Many users who scam people out of their pets ARE reported and there are still no repercussions for them. Instead, the person that was scammed out of their pet is told that the trade is irreversible and that they should've done research beforehand.