Reptiles - Geckos, Lizards, Snakes, and Turtles!

[payno.]

Rambo, do your legs even legs??

[rekkovi]

Warning, tiny bit of ranting ahead! But it is mainly good things (:

I think we can all agree the reptile community can be full of disagreements depending on how individuals care for their pets. But am I the only one who feels like it tends to stick to care guides for whole species and judge others based on these guidelines without taking into account each animal’s individuality?

I have read about different species on multiple forums and interacted in discord servers ever since I got my first reptile in 2015. It seems that with every year, tank size minimums go up with little context or explanation. Don’t get me wrong, most animals benefit from the space, and I am all for improving care as years go by.

But see, I have a leopard gecko named Kashmir. A little female bell albino that cannot see very well at all and did not like moving very much. I actually had issues with her being slightly overweight. She lived most of her life in a 20 gallon tank with linoleum flooring, and after interacting with forums and discords, I felt somehow neglectful for keeping her in such a small environment when others had pictures of their huge bioactive 70 gallons. I was told the small terrarium was probably the reason for her weight. I almost caved and moved her to an old bigger tank I had in my shed.

That was until something came up with my bearded dragons’ terrariums and I had to do a bunch of moving around with all my reptile enclosures and got new furniture. Kashmir’s 20 gallon was now an inch too long for the only shelf left. After a lot of nagging from my mother, I bought a slightly smaller tank, a 15 gallon, feeling guilty for “downgrading” her enclosure instead of upgrading it. I already had plans ready in my head, thinking this 15 gallon wouldn’t be permanent, that I’d find a solution.

Here is the thing: SHE LOVES IT. To her, this was an upgrade. She has never been this active before. My little grumpy leopard gecko that would sit in one spot outside her warm hide all day and all night is now exploring her whole tank, using the moist and cold hides she used to never touch. The tank isn’t quite as long so she is more familiar with its every corner and she loves using all the space. Every time I approach the tank she is in a new different spot and it makes me so happy to see it. And so far, her weight is around 62 grams, with the same ravenous appetite and eating habits as when she was overweight around August at 76 grams. The other thing I was told is that maintaining correct temperatures in a smaller tank was very hard, but so far each end is perfect (I check every day with a temperature gun!) and Kashmir uses both depending on her mood.

In addition, despite being told digging as a natural behaviour would help with her weight, I have decided to make a judgement with my own animal. Kashmir’s vision is very bad and she jumps on any shadow she sees in hopes that it is food. As much as digging or a bioactive tank could be fun for her, the risks of her ingesting mouthfuls of loose substrate upon seeing slight mouvement are way too high. She will stay on safe linoleum floor.

The lesson I learned from this is that every single animal is unique and that we must not compare ourselves to others. Of course, basic needs have to be met. However, different individuals need their own specific conditions met in order to thrive. So don’t beat yourself up and don’t compare yourself to others if your pets are happy and healthy under your care! ♡

[Durnehviir]

Warning, tiny bit of ranting ahead! But it is mainly good things (:

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For a leopard gecko I’ve never seen the minimum tank size be anything other than a 20 gallon long. More is always better but there is a minimum recommend size for a reason.
And there is always exceptions.

I’ve seen the minimum recommended tank size for a bearded dragon to be a 40 gallon breeder, but that has been recently outdated and the minimum is now 120 gallons or a 4x2x2 which I definitely agree with especially for full grown adults, but again, there’s always exceptions to the rule- like my 10 year old+ bearded dragon.
I had my BD in a 75 gallon, it was the biggest tank I’ve had at the time as I didn’t have the 400$ to buy the custom 4x2x2 for him- which I would’ve happily saved up for. Anyhow, I noticed he wouldn’t utilize the entire tank, hardly moved from his basking bulb and never once in the six-seven years that I’ve had him, never seen him use a hide. Well something came up and I had to move him into a 55 gallon tank -which was only going to be temporary. But I noticed him using the entire tank this time, going into his hide, digging in the play sand/soil mixture I had for him, which to me, made me believe he was happier in the smaller space, which was confusing to me for sure, but I left him be.
He’s an old, grumpy man, and they know what they like better than we do.

Recommendations are just that- recommendations. They don’t always get followed, especially when each individual reptile is different, especially those that are special needs such as being blind, or being old.

[rekkovi]

Warning, tiny bit of ranting ahead! But it is mainly good things (:

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I’ve personally seen many different minimums beside 20 gallons. In 2015, most seemed to agree the minimum for one leopard gecko is 10 gallons. These days, on the discord servers I’ve been on, some will imply it is abusive to keep them in anything smaller than a 40 gallon. You are right in the sense that they should only be recommendations, but I’ve always seen them treated as obligations and it took me a long time to realize the internet and other reptile keepers should not have this much of an impact on how I treat my animals.

I used Kashmir as my most recent example, but it seems I am in a similar situation with my bearded dragons. I started them in 40 gallons around 2015-2016, updated them to 70 gallons when I learned it became the new minimum around 2018 - and I hadn’t heard about 120 gallons being the new current minimum. One of my beardies, Adélaïde is around 8 or 9 years old and the other, Darwin, is stunted, and has limited mobility due to metabolic bone disease caused by incorrect husbandry in her past home. (She also has a blind eye, this time for unknown reasons. She could’ve been born with it or she could’ve stared at her coil UVB in her old home for too long, I have no idea.)
Considering all this, I am not going to invest in 120 gallons tanks for these two. A year or two ago, though, I could’ve jumped upon hearing this and started investing in bigger tanks.

This may be partly my fault too - two of my reptiles have always been special needs, and now that Addie’s getting older, she can count as a third. Maybe it should’ve dawned on me sooner that I can’t blindly follow general care guides for them, especially since I was already adapting a lot of things for them, like assisting during feeding or only offering low climbing spots.

My main observation was how the reptile community could be toxic about these sorts of things. Maybe I tend to let myself be influenced too easily, or I want to be the perfect pet owner with all the recommendations neatly checked on a little list. Either way it was an important lesson to learn, especially since my future reptiles will probably only be rescues - my future may be full of new little misfits that won’t thrive with the exact recommendations forums and discord channels seem to love. (:

[Catsplat18]

Warning, tiny bit of ranting ahead! But it is mainly good things (:

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Personally I think the new (larger) recommendations in the hobby are meant to inform new owners who otherwise would probably neglect their animal. There is so much misinformation for beginners. Petco and PetSmart caresheets are the ones advocating 10 gallons and calcium sand or whatever. My leopard gecko is in a 20 long and I do think I need to upgrade him because he's always bored in his tank and when I take him out he wants to run and explore the whole room. But he's also really big, especially for a wild type, and rather young and energetic. I think for people just going out and buying a reptile for the first time, having a bigger tank is better than having a smaller one. After that, it's good to change the basics to suit your individual animal's personal needs, like you guys said. Reptiles with special needs need special enclosures, but the average kid asking for a lizard will be getting a baby from the store, and the hope is that the parents will do some online research instead of reading the pamphlet once and keeping a gecko in a 10 gallon for its whole 20 years of life. On the other hand, reptiles live a long time -- it's okay to upgrade/downgrade as needed. My gecko has been in his 20 gal forever, and I'm waiting to build a tortoise table to free up my tortoise's 36” x 18” x 12” (too small for her permanently -- but she has outside time when the weather permits it) to use for him. Then I'll get a pacman frog or something for his old 20 gallon.

I think when people debate about care guides, they're assuming you have a cookie-cutter standard average normal animal. They say not to use superworms for leopard geckos because they're too big? Then why does mine gobble them up without an issue? Maybe because he is bigger than the average leo. He's in the prime of his life now and I know he'll appreciate a bigger tank, but when he starts to get old, I'll probably do the same thing as you and give him a downgrade.

Now, if you tell someone why you're keeping your animal in a smaller tank and they still call you out on it? Then they're the misinformed one, not you. Rescuing animals, especially "imperfect" ones, means you have to make adjustments.

[Targaryen]

I do empathise with where you're coming from. In the past 5-6yrs especially, the hobby has pushed forward a LOT regarding care standards and that's great - truly. It's nice to see larger enclosures become the standard, and UVB for more crepuscular animals and snakes especially become more commonplace.

However there has sort of become this extremist group on this side of the husbandry spectrum who are very quick to denounce anything but the best as abusive. Heatmats? Abusive. No halogens? Abusive. No UVB for a leopard gecko or snake? Abusive. Not exactly a 4x2x2ft for a ball python or bearded dragon? Abusive.

It doesn't make sense and it ends up alienating more people than it helps. While we should always strive to do the most and the best we can as guardians of these animals, we all need to start somewhere and all animals are individuals and that should be accounted for. Some get smaller, some get bigger, some are more active, some are less active, some are disabled or sickly in some fashion and that needs to be accommodated. Sometimes that looks like practising husbandry that is less than, or not the best, but it is in fact in the best interest of the animal. You need to know the rules to learn how to break them, and sometimes not practicing these "minimums" put forward is actually in the best interest of the animal.

In other news... I brought this pretty girl home over a week ago.

[Catsplat18]

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In other news... I brought this pretty girl home over a week ago.

Oh my god is that what I think it is...

[Targaryen]

Albertisii! northern white-lipped python

[payno.]

When people tell you to be more social:

[Velveteen Hound.]

I do empathise with where you're coming from. In the past 5-6yrs especially, the hobby has pushed forward a LOT regarding care standards and that's great - truly. It's nice to see larger enclosures become the standard, and UVB for more crepuscular animals and snakes especially become more commonplace.

However there has sort of become this extremist group on this side of the husbandry spectrum who are very quick to denounce anything but the best as abusive. Heatmats? Abusive. No halogens? Abusive. No UVB for a leopard gecko or snake? Abusive. Not exactly a 4x2x2ft for a ball python or bearded dragon? Abusive.

It doesn't make sense and it ends up alienating more people than it helps. While we should always strive to do the most and the best we can as guardians of these animals, we all need to start somewhere and all animals are individuals and that should be accounted for. Some get smaller, some get bigger, some are more active, some are less active, some are disabled or sickly in some fashion and that needs to be accommodated. Sometimes that looks like practising husbandry that is less than, or not the best, but it is in fact in the best interest of the animal. You need to know the rules to learn how to break them, and sometimes not practicing these "minimums" put forward is actually in the best interest of the animal.

In other news... I brought this pretty girl home over a week ago.

I am super jealous. WLP are my dream snake.
One day .....