Rarity Value Discussion: Why Our Current System is Flawed

Discussion about the Pets, Items, Dress-ups, Events, Site, Forum or other CS features!

Does the current trading system (1 '09 rare = 2 '10 rares / 1 '10 VR) make sense to you?

Yes, and I like this system.
20
25%
Yes, but I don't like this system.
16
20%
Kind of / unsure
10
13%
No, but I like this system.
0
No votes
No, and I don't like this system.
34
43%
 
Total votes : 80

Rarity Value Discussion: Why Our Current System is Flawed

Postby September Rain » Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:38 am

Hi there! This is something that I've been thinking about a decent bit recently, so I wanted to see what everyone else thought about this issue.

We've all heard it before:
One '09 rare is worth two '10 rares.
A '10 very rare is worth the same as an '09 rare.
A 2016 rare is worth less than an '09 rare.


This has been ingrained in me (and many other players) since the day I joined. But why do we value rares this way?

I know that this is how it's always been, but I'm asking sincerely: why? If two pets have the same rarity tag - regardless of year - should they not have roughly the same value (barring OMGSR / other high-value "list" pets)? Why is a pet with the "very rare" rarity tag deemed less than a pet with a "rare" tag, just because the very rare pet is more recent? By definition, a very rare is rarer than a rare. If it were less rare, it would not have a higher rarity tag.

So why do we value pets this way? I can think of two main reasons off the top of my head: People think that older pets are ultimately rarer, or that because they may have become rare earlier, they are more rare than newer rares. However, there is no evidence to either of these claims.

Let's break down this first claim: that older pets are rarer and thus worth more than newer pets. Again, there is not any solid evidence to this. Despite the fact that these pets were originally released several years prior, December 18th rereleases old pets to keep them in circulation, and older rares still have the same "rare" tag as newer rares. Therefore, there is no reason to believe that a rare is worth more than another rare simply because it is older.

Now let's turn to the second claim. Some people may look at when a pet turned rare in determining its ultimate worth. Because of this, they may decide that pets from 2009 that became rare in, say, 2011, are rarer than pets that automatically went straight to rare upon their release in 2019. This is problematic because there is truly no way of really knowing which pet is rarer, especially without solid numbers.

On a similar note, many people adhere to the "three month" rule; that is, that one pet is worth the exact same as a pet of the same rarity if their original release dates are within three months of each other. However, this does not make sense if we say older rares are worth more purely because they went rarer sooner.

To help emphasize what I mean, let's look at a few pets and when they turned rare.

First, let's take a look at the Yellow Lights Dog from the 2009 Advent event.
Image

This pet was originally released in December of 2009, but has only been rare since March of 2012.

Next, let's look at a pet from the same month (December 2009): the White Antique Dog.
Image

This dog, despite being released the very same month as the Yellow Lights Dog, has been rare since February of 2015. If we were to go by the assumption that pets that turned rare earlier are worth more, the Yellow Lights Dog should not be a fair swap for the White Antique Dog. However, we use the three month rule to decide that these pets, despite the nearly three year gap in their rarity changes, are worth the same.

Why are these pets valued the same, yet pets that have been rare (or higher) since their release are worth less than these pets? The Green-Headed Cockatrice Chicken (image here) turned rare in December of 2014, yet this pet is worth significantly less than any '09 rare, let alone the White Antique Dog.

So it's obvious that it's not the fact that some older rares turned rare sooner than the new rares were released; if this were the case, the three month rule could not be accurate, since there are huge gaps in when pets turned rare, despite being released around a similar time.

Now, let's look at the 2016 Green Robot Rat from the 2016 Space Event.
Image

This pet turned very rare from the moment it got its rarity tag. It is the only summer event pet to have turned very rare ever. It has never wavered from this rarity either. So why is it worth less in our current system than a 2009 rare? No, really: why is a very rare worth less than a rare? I cannot see how this makes any sort of logical sense.

Why do we trade this way? This system - specifically the "one '09 rare equals two '10 rares or one '10 very rare" system - is not simple or sustainable. I saw a player who posted a chart of how many rares one rare from any given year is worth, and a 2009 rare was said to be worth 4096 2021 rares. Now, the math and values were correct, based on our current system. As some players pointed out, however, no player would or could conceivably conduct a trade like this.

Another point I'd like to bring up here is demand. Some people may suggest that older pets are worth more because they have higher demand than newer pets. This may be the case with some older pets, but it certainly isn't the case with all of them. Obviously, some pets, such as the Shima Longtail, will be valued higher than their rarity tags because of their demand. I can understand this - a highly sought after pet that many people want to keep could lead to less of them in circulation - but this isn't the case with all of the pets. This is especially true because December 18th keeps older pets in circulation. If older pets have higher demand purely because they are older, then that is only because they were originally said to be worth more. This creates a self-fulfilling prophecy in that the older rares are more valuable, not because they are actually rarer, but because players are told that they are worth more and our trading system is molded around this idea. It is the players that give pets value; this is why some very rare pets are considered to be worth several OMGSR pets. It may not make sense on a logical level, but if everyone believes something is more valuable, it will be more valuable. So where am I going with this? Again, I'd like to reiterate that older rares are not worth more than newer rares purely because they are older. Even if demand and the trading system give older rares a higher value, they are not actually rarer than newer rares. Because of this, older rares should not be treated as if they are rarer, and thus worth more, than newer rares and very rares.

Some players may guess that newer rares are closer to uncommon and older rares are closer to very rare, but again, there is no way to tell. With the limited rarity tags and lack of concrete data, there is no way to ever truly know if one rare is rarer than another. This problem is further amplified by the fact that rarities are constantly fluctuating; players become inactive, December 18th releases more pets... there's not really a fool-proof way to know how one rare pet compares to another, so all we can really use are the rarity tags.

Therefore, it would be more logical, simple, and sustainable to go by the system that one rare is equal to any other rare, regardless of the release year. Furthermore, I believe that including more rarity tags (specifically ones between uncommon/rare, rare/very rare, and very rare/OMGSR) could help us better understand where exactly certain pets stand in terms of rarity. This could help eliminate major doubts that pets that are older are rarer just because they are older, but that's a discussion for another day.

TL;DR: older pets are not necessarily rarer than newer pets, so it doesn't make sense to value them as such. I believe that it would be more simple, logical, and sustainable to go by the system of "one rare = one rare" regardless of release year.

However, I would like to hear the rest of the CS community. What are your thoughts on our current system of trading? Does it make sense that older rares are worth more than newer rares? Why? I'd love to hear more about everyone's thoughts surrounding this topic :)

Edit: I've had some great input here, so I figured I'd put up a poll to get a better idea of what the CS community thinks about specific aspects of the rarity math / trading system. Here it is!
Last edited by September Rain on Thu Feb 25, 2021 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rarity Value Discussion: Why Our Current System is Flawe

Postby Neoncherry64 » Wed Feb 24, 2021 8:15 am

I wholeheartedly agree with everything you have said here! I personally value years a lot less than other people, but still take them into account. For instance, I’d probably trade a 2018 rare for a current day rare that I really want, but not a 2009 rare. The fact that 16 2021 rares is considered “fair” for a 2017 rare blows my mind... you wouldn’t give 16x the c$ for a 2018 rare, would you? The c$ system that is widely accepted today literally contradicts the rarity math system so bad and it blows my mind that people have been using it for so many years
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Re: Rarity Value Discussion: Why Our Current System is Flawe

Postby Shian » Wed Feb 24, 2021 8:48 am

Ok, so if you have two pets that are rare, one from 2009 and another from 2019. Hypothetically, these turned rare at the exact same time, so they should be the same value, right? Easy day, done deal.
Wrong.
Even if they are the same value (they turned rare at the exact same time) this just means there are the same number of these pets on all active accounts.
There is no difference to the system whether that pet is is a trade group or in a "never for trade" folder. Older pets have a higher chance of being in someone's collection by sheer numbers alone.
In this very simplified example, if you have 10 of the pets from 2009 and 10 of the pets from 2019, there's a good chance that 9 out of the 10 pets from 2009 are in someone's collection and not for trade. Whereas you'd have 5 out of 10 of the 2019 for trade because it's recent and everyone has multiples of them.
Older pets may not be rarer by numbers, but you can be sure there's always more people looking for them than the newer pet even if they're the exact same rarity because many of them have found "forever homes".

It's not just about rarity, it's about availability. Even Dec 18th does not factor in availability. It's simply a large, generalized "here's how many pets of this type exist in the game right now whether they are for trade or not."

This is not exclusive to age as we've seen the space event has some very hard to trade for pets even straight out of the event. This is more of a generalization and there will always be outliers.
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Re: Rarity Value Discussion: Why Our Current System is Flawe

Postby September Rain » Wed Feb 24, 2021 11:06 am

Neoncherry64 wrote:I wholeheartedly agree with everything you have said here! I personally value years a lot less than other people, but still take them into account. For instance, I’d probably trade a 2018 rare for a current day rare that I really want, but not a 2009 rare. The fact that 16 2021 rares is considered “fair” for a 2017 rare blows my mind... you wouldn’t give 16x the c$ for a 2018 rare, would you? The c$ system that is widely accepted today literally contradicts the rarity math system so bad and it blows my mind that people have been using it for so many years

This is a really good point as well! I hadn't considered it, but it is really odd that the C$ values and pet values are so different.

Shian wrote:Ok, so if you have two pets that are rare, one from 2009 and another from 2019. Hypothetically, these turned rare at the exact same time, so they should be the same value, right? Easy day, done deal.
Wrong.
Even if they are the same value (they turned rare at the exact same time) this just means there are the same number of these pets on all active accounts.
There is no difference to the system whether that pet is is a trade group or in a "never for trade" folder. Older pets have a higher chance of being in someone's collection by sheer numbers alone.
In this very simplified example, if you have 10 of the pets from 2009 and 10 of the pets from 2019, there's a good chance that 9 out of the 10 pets from 2009 are in someone's collection and not for trade. Whereas you'd have 5 out of 10 of the 2019 for trade because it's recent and everyone has multiples of them.
Older pets may not be rarer by numbers, but you can be sure there's always more people looking for them than the newer pet even if they're the exact same rarity because many of them have found "forever homes".

It's not just about rarity, it's about availability. Even Dec 18th does not factor in availability. It's simply a large, generalized "here's how many pets of this type exist in the game right now whether they are for trade or not."

This is not exclusive to age as we've seen the space event has some very hard to trade for pets even straight out of the event. This is more of a generalization and there will always be outliers.

This is a really good point that I hadn't considered before, thank you for bringing this up!

However, while it may be true that older pets could have a higher demand value because more are locked away in groups (and thus less would be in circulation), I feel that the main issue is that people seem to value older rares more specifically because they are older, not necessarily because they are more challenging to get. With a lot of older or higher demand pets, I can definitely see how the value spikes far beyond the rarity of the pet due to its demand (especially with the Shima Longtail, Dragon Cat PPS, and Raven Dog).

However, with pets that don't have significant demand, I feel that it's very strange to value older pets so much higher than newer pets. Even if there are less older rares in circulation, it still doesn't make sense to value an ordinary '09 rare as being worth 1024 times more than a 2019 rare. I could understand not wanting to swap a 2019 rare for a 2009 rare, especially because many people have paid much more for 2009 rares than for 2019 rares, and because there may be less older pets in circulation. Again, however, I'd like to reiterate that I feel this does not justify the huge gap in worth between older and newer rares.
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Re: Rarity Value Discussion: Why Our Current System is Flawe

Postby Bilaz » Wed Feb 24, 2021 11:18 am

Image
Have you seen lots of these cats around lately? It's very common so people ought to have like 2 or 3 of it in their trade groups for sure... But I'm going to guess probably not.
This is because I took a lot of these out of the trading pool by hoarding 2000 of them.
Why am I talking about my hoard? Well because this is the exact reason why dates matter a bit (not so much as to double the value, but a bit), circulation. It's impossible to keep track of how much every single pet has been locked away in a collection or a hoard. But, in general, older pets have found their forever home way more than newer pets. This is why you'll see an uncommon from last months in everyone's groups, but not the very common kitty I just showed.
I think a smaller correction would fit more though
something like splitting it into 'early', 'mid', and 'late' rares
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Re: Rarity Value Discussion: Why Our Current System is Flawe

Postby September Rain » Wed Feb 24, 2021 11:39 am

Bilaz wrote:Image
Have you seen lots of these cats around lately? It's very common so people ought to have like 2 or 3 of it in their trade groups for sure... But I'm going to guess probably not.
This is because I took a lot of these out of the trading pool by hoarding 2000 of them.
Why am I talking about my hoard? Well because this is the exact reason why dates matter a bit (not so much as to double the value, but a bit), circulation. It's impossible to keep track of how much every single pet has been locked away in a collection or a hoard. But, in general, older pets have found their forever home way more than newer pets. This is why you'll see an uncommon from last months in everyone's groups, but not the very common kitty I just showed.
I think a smaller correction would fit more though
something like splitting it into 'early', 'mid', and 'late' rares

This is a good point, especially that there's no differentiation between locked pets and unlocked pets. Coincidentally, I actually have a small hoard with a few of that cat :lol:

Could you elaborate a bit more on what you mean by splitting the pets into categories? It sounds like an interesting idea, but how big would the gaps be between groups, and where would the boundaries be for the groups? I understand valuing older rares that are difficult to find a bit more than newer rares, but how much more would this system value older rares?
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Re: Rarity Value Discussion: Why Our Current System is Flawe

Postby Bilaz » Wed Feb 24, 2021 11:47 am

September Rain wrote:This is a good point, especially that there's no differentiation between locked pets and unlocked pets. Coincidentally, I actually have a small hoard with a few of that cat :lol:

Could you elaborate a bit more on what you mean by splitting the pets into categories? It sounds like an interesting idea, but how big would the gaps be between groups, and where would the boundaries be for the groups? I understand valuing older rares that are difficult to find a bit more than newer rares, but how much more would this system value older rares?

Awww I hope I didn't make them too hard to find xD it's a lovely design
oooh well a while back I made this suggestion:
8 'recent rares' (2021 - 2018) = 4 'mid rares' (2016-2014) = 2 'old rares' (2013-2011) = 1 'very old rare' (2010-2009)
Which is pretty much how I myself would trade, it seems fair enough? I value rarity more so I do 4 rares for a very rare
So then you get
16 'recent rares' (2021 - 2018) = 4 'recent very rares' (2021 - 2018) = 2 'mid very rare' (2016-2014) = 1 'old very rare' (2013-2011)
not going to bother with very old very rares because we're getting into list territory then
Which I think is far more doable for everyone. You could grab 16 current token pets and trade it for a very rare dog from 2012, I think that's about fair?
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Re: Rarity Value Discussion: Why Our Current System is Flawe

Postby September Rain » Wed Feb 24, 2021 11:56 am

Bilaz wrote:Awww I hope I didn't make them too hard to find xD it's a lovely design
oooh well a while back I made this suggestion:
8 'recent rares' (2021 - 2018) = 4 'mid rares' (2016-2014) = 2 'old rares' (2013-2011) = 1 'very old rare' (2010-2009)
Which is pretty much how I myself would trade, it seems fair enough? I value rarity more so I do 4 rares for a very rare
So then you get
16 'recent rares' (2021 - 2018) = 4 'recent very rares' (2021 - 2018) = 2 'mid very rare' (2016-2014) = 1 'old very rare' (2013-2011)
not going to bother with very old very rares because we're getting into list territory then
Which I think is far more doable for everyone. You could grab 16 current token pets and trade it for a very rare dog from 2012, I think that's about fair?

Nah, don't worry about it :lol:

As for your main point, I think that your system is pretty interesting! It certainly seems more sustainable than our current system haha.

I just had one question though: as the years continue, would the groups keep having to be adjusted? If so, in what way would this be done?
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Re: Rarity Value Discussion: Why Our Current System is Flawe

Postby Bilaz » Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:02 pm

Thank you :D
As years keep being added I'd think logically the older years will be closer together.
I think that's how the doubling originally started? If it's the year 2012 it makes sense that a 2009 pet is 8 current pets'?
So if this site still exists in 2030 I'd used the same amounts but widen the groups. New can be 2030-2025, mid can be 2024 - 2019, old can be 2018-2014 and very old can be 2013-2009

Doing this will also give people a feeling that the value of their pets is rising, which is encouraging to keep playing
Last edited by Bilaz on Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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x➤ Sasha - ISFJ - vegan - adult
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Re: Rarity Value Discussion: Why Our Current System is Flawe

Postby September Rain » Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:04 pm

Bilaz wrote:Thank you :D
As years keep being added I'd think logically the older years will be closer together.
I think that's how the doubling originally started? If it's the year 2012 it makes sense that a 2009 pet is 8 current pets'?
So if this site still exists in 2030 I'd used the same amounts but widen the groups. New can be 2030-2025, mid can be 2024 - 2019, old can be 2018-2015 and very old can be 2014-2009


Oh, this makes a lot of sense! This seems like a really good system with a lot of promise :)
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