Black Lives Matter

[ink-smudge]

my friend is really passionate about this topic so she begged to write a response on my account since she quit cs herself a while back. it’s kind of essay-length (pls don't kill me mods ;-;), though she’s really smart so even if you disagree with her at least you are now aware of one more viewpoint that exists. i will say though, all the chaos in the world right now really has my mental health on the fritz so please don’t take out any disagreements on me : ( i’ll try to show her the responses in case you guys want to debate but please just know that if she can’t write back to you guys that i personally will not be able to continue the debate on her behalf so pls don’t dm about it. may i present, my pal’s latest novel:

“I have a few opinions I would like to share based on this recent news post. I want to preface that it’s great that CS is a place that we can make important issues known! Thank you, CS staff, for taking the time to show you care.

First, I don’t think further erasing the existence of indigenous peoples by removing the costume entirely as others have suggested is the best solution. Just as it is considered inclusive to include hijabs as items to place on characters/avatars to acknowledge that piece of a person’s identity, as echoed by some other users, those of us with Native American heritage often place high value on things representative of Native American culture not just for trading purposes but because of its personal significance, as there are few other items that acknowledge the existence of native peoples. As some complained, the outfit is not very accurate—an ideal solution in my opinion is to revise the outfit into not a simple stereotype, but perhaps a more accurate and respectful representation. This is not an ideal world we live in however, and as there is such great variance between the traditional outfits of various groups, it would be impossible to draw an item that accurately represents all native cultures. As I like the idea that no particular Native American groups are excluded, and due to the fact that I don’t expect staff to make hundreds of items for each subculture, I would much rather have this costume with the name change than nothing at all.

Second, as someone with a degree in social justice and equity, I would like to bring some important nuances to light that I’m concerned would not otherwise be considered. I completely agree that obviously racist content should not be tolerated. That being said, it concerns me that the staff is implementing a complete no tolerance policy for any statement that could be remotely interpreted as anti-BLM. This classification is far too open to interpretation, and silences many valid, justice-seeking, and important opinions because many people would much rather report something than find out what the person is actually saying. (I know how this statement looks on the surface, but I think it important that one tries to read this with an open mind before coming to a conclusion I am not making. Please bear with me.) As another user stated previously in this thread, some movements for social equality preceded the Black Lives Matter movement, and their existences do not undermine that. There will always be someone who uses the name of a movement inappropriately to further their own agendas, but that doesn’t mean one should unquestionably shun a broader idea or even phrase as a whole simply because some radical racist group who doesn’t know up from down used the concept out of context to promote their own harmful ideals. The general concept that lives of all races count for something is not a controversial topic when you get right down to it, (unless one is indeed racist ). It is important to recognize that the phrase “all lives matter” has been used by racist and evil groups. However, one has to face, there are a horrifying number of groups of people in desperate need of justice. The idea that BLM is the only relevant movement right now and that we must work towards one goal, one at a time or else face disciplinary action on a virtual pet collection site puts fear into me, as it doesn’t leave room for any other cultures to speak up.

The movement for equality for black Americans, while not anywhere near finished, has been slowly yet steadily gaining traction over time. It is crucial that we do not stop working if we want to see longstanding change. But meanwhile, some other cultures don’t even have a foot to stand on. What about Native Americans? Where are the society-wide movements and marches for equal rights for us? Police brutality is a severe issue within our population as well, not to mention the fact that our culture was nearly obliterated, a hugely disproportionate number of us are living in poverty with lack of resources, racism against indigenous people is all over the place, and that back in colonial America those who weren’t killed for sport or indirectly through disease were often taken as slaves just as African people and their descendants were. The reason there weren’t more native slaves was because most were too sick, weakened from attacks, or dead to be much good for manual labor!

This isn't a matter of oppression olympics, and we shouldn’t turn it into one. I am simply trying to illustrate that these problems are shared. Because the indigenous population of North America was so severely wiped out, those of us who remain hardly have a voice in larger society. This doesn’t mean that no one is for equality for Native Americans, but it is indisputable that movements struggling for justice for this group do not receive as much attention or active support like they need as well. To fix this, there should be solidarity between marginalized racial groups, and all groups seeking to accomplish the same thing. The fact that indigenous people (and other groups) are once again being told to pipe down and that we don’t have the right to battle for our own equality and opportunity because another group is already in the process of fighting their own fight is deeply disturbing to me. There is no valid reason as to why the BLM movement cannot help lift other oppressed people up, or at the bare minimum coexist with movements for the rights of all. I truly and honestly believe that the lives and justice and equality of all matter, because to be realistic, America is full of people in various degrees of suffering. Black people have it bad, Native Americans have it bad, Latinx people have it bad, all other minorities (as well as those of all races in poverty, living in dangerous areas, dealing with mental health issues, without healthcare, etc.) are subject to some degree of oppression, but may not have the ability to influence society without help. I am fighting for the Black Lives Matter movement as hard as anyone, but I also support justice now for all races, not just when the BLM movement is complete and we have justice for black Americans. Because let’s face it, the recent events seem to hold promise for a significant step in the right direction, but this problem isn’t going to be fixed overnight. It’s going to take a lot more work from all of us to put everything right. If posting that the lives of all marginalized groups matter (and any humans who need help, resources, and protection [controversial opinion here: even cops—particularly POC cops who took up their jobs to fight the fight for equality of their people and families via the relative power the police hold and to change the system for the better from the inside]) “undermines” BLM by arguing for justice for all groups who need it, then by calling in the mods, you are undermining the other movements that are already struggling to speak loud enough to be heard, those of which who may be only at the very beginning of their own fights for justice.

Thank you for coming to my TED talk. = )”

[Amaranthos]

That being said, it concerns me that the staff is implementing a complete no tolerance policy for any statement that could be remotely interpreted as anti-BLM. This classification is far too open to interpretation, and silences many valid, justice-seeking, and important opinions because many people would much rather report something than find out what the person is actually saying. (I know how this statement looks on the surface, but I think it important that one tries to read this with an open mind before coming to a conclusion I am not making. Please bear with me.) As another user stated previously in this thread, some movements for social equality preceded the Black Lives Matter movement, and their existences do not undermine that. There will always be someone who uses the name of a movement inappropriately to further their own agendas, but that doesn’t mean one should unquestionably shun a broader idea or even phrase as a whole simply because some radical racist group who doesn’t know up from down used the concept out of context to promote their own harmful ideals. The general concept that lives of all races count for something is not a controversial topic when you get right down to it, (unless one is indeed racist ). It is important to recognize that the phrase “all lives matter” has been used by racist and evil groups. However, one has to face, there are a horrifying number of groups of people in desperate need of justice. The idea that BLM is the only relevant movement right now and that we must work towards one goal, one at a time or else face disciplinary action on a virtual pet collection site puts fear into me, as it doesn’t leave room for any other cultures to speak up.

Hope you don't mind if I just pick this one out real quick, but to assure you and your friend a little: While our moderators do react to seeing phrases such as All Lives Matter, we aim to educate rather than punish people, as we are fully aware that there are plenty of people here who do not act in malice, and who simply thought they were being inclusive.

While we do discourage people from using the All Lives / Blue Lives Matter phrases here and ask to remove them, it is by no means an instant-warning rule, and our staff seek out users to give them an explanation first for why we are restricting the use of those movement names.

While we fully understand that black people aren't the only group of people currently fighting against injustices against them across the world, the reality here is that the All Lives Matter phrase doesn't have its roots in the included support of other peoples (such as those of the First Nations and Native Americans).
All Lives was explicitly started as a response to the BLM movement, and we would consider it rather dishonest to give it a free pass under the guise of support towards other maginalized groups, when those groups were not the ones who coined the phrase.

We are aware that it's how some people interpret the All Lives phrase, but encourage them to instead show their support for other groups by researching which movements and terms are actually associated with them.
BLM and movements for the support of other marginalized groups can coexist perfectly fine indeed, it's simply that All Lives Matter is not the phrase that is appropriate here.

[cαtαstrσphe]

Don't forget friends, CS was made by people who live in New Zealand, so they don't have to bend to America's rules or abide it's laws to a degree.. so the amendments and freedom of speech etc can't be used to excuse racism and hate here, unless there's some law in New Zealand about being allowed to be openly racist and support past horrors such as slavery, then CS has the right to ban anything is sees fit to keep all of it's members safe and happy, assuming it's okay within their laws. Heck they can ban the colour blue if they wanted and no one could tell them otherwise, so let us be grateful they're only banning racist and homophobic materials and not more like some other kids sites.

[Kenjaku]

First, I don’t think further erasing the existence of indigenous peoples by removing the costume entirely as others have suggested is the best solution. Just as it is considered inclusive to include hijabs as items to place on characters/avatars to acknowledge that piece of a person’s identity, as echoed by some other users, those of us with Native American heritage often place high value on things representative of Native American culture not just for trading purposes but because of its personal significance, as there are few other items that acknowledge the existence of native peoples. As some complained, the outfit is not very accurate—an ideal solution in my opinion is to revise the outfit into not a simple stereotype, but perhaps a more accurate and respectful representation. This is not an ideal world we live in however, and as there is such great variance between the traditional outfits of various groups, it would be impossible to draw an item that accurately represents all native cultures. As I like the idea that no particular Native American groups are excluded, and due to the fact that I don’t expect staff to make hundreds of items for each subculture, I would much rather have this costume with the name change than nothing at all.

No one Native person can speak for them all, we are not a hivemind. That being said, I do not consider removing the item erasure of our people. I think it's kind of silly to view it that way, honestly. I would prefer no representation to harmful representation. My tribe's traditions and wear are different to another's, this is true. However, the uneducated majority sees NDNs are one image: a warm skinned person in hide and feathers. There is a way to have representation and be respectful about it; this item simply isn't and hasn't ever truly been.

[Aleksander]

Thank you for adressing this! *-*/
And I really like the comic about why "All Live Matters" is not a good response. I will use it as well to show it to people, so thank you for sharing it! C:

[vaermina]

First, I don’t think further erasing the existence of indigenous peoples by removing the costume entirely as others have suggested is the best solution. Just as it is considered inclusive to include hijabs as items to place on characters/avatars to acknowledge that piece of a person’s identity, as echoed by some other users, those of us with Native American heritage often place high value on things representative of Native American culture not just for trading purposes but because of its personal significance, as there are few other items that acknowledge the existence of native peoples. As some complained, the outfit is not very accurate—an ideal solution in my opinion is to revise the outfit into not a simple stereotype, but perhaps a more accurate and respectful representation. This is not an ideal world we live in however, and as there is such great variance between the traditional outfits of various groups, it would be impossible to draw an item that accurately represents all native cultures. As I like the idea that no particular Native American groups are excluded, and due to the fact that I don’t expect staff to make hundreds of items for each subculture, I would much rather have this costume with the name change than nothing at all.

multiple indigenous users have stated that costume makes them feel uncomfortable and is a blatant disrespect to their culture. while i understand representation for cs items, the deerskin costume was originally released as a halloween item, so it was not released in regards to respecting native american culture as over the years, many indigenous citizens have voiced how they feel that native american halloween costumes romanticize and whitewash their culture, and it adds insult to injury when native people have suffered through centuries of colonialism, capital exploitation, assimilation and racism. while i'm sure cs meant no ill-will with the costume in the first place, the hurt stems from the fact it was created as a halloween costume, and halloween native american costumes have been worn by non-natives without said people even considering the cultural impact of some of said items (such as headdresses). while i totally agree that representation matters, the deerskin costume was originally released as a halloween item and shouldn't necessarily be compared to hijabs when the deerskin costume was originally released as a 'holiday dress-up'. the deerskin costume was originally released on cs as a halloween item and was not released in regards to respecting native american culture but rather created as a halloween dress-up, not something to expressively respect native american culture (although like stated before, i do not think cs moderators meant to purposely hurt anyone's feelings with it). while i know that some indigenous people are not offended by the costume, many are (and have voiced so on this thread) and i feel like trying to clump everyone in the same group when it comes to how the costume is handled isn't exactly ideal, either. many people aren't okay with the costume still being around, no matter how much cs tries to twink it because of its original purpose here on the website.
overall, i agree with @hewitt. it enforces a stereotype, and removing an item that was originally created as a halloween costume isn't necessarily erasure of native american culture - it's respecting said culture, and listening to the voices of native people who may or may not have been personally affected it. many have expressed that they feel more comfortable with it being removed completely.

edit; it seems that one person's post was removed so i'm deleting this portion lmao.
thank you to cs mods for doing that cause that really boiled my blood there.

[みりん〇°•]

Huh! I’m a Native American myself and I thought that item was correct the whole time. Well, now I know. I reeeeeally need to catch up on my history. Time to hit the books!

[bellamare]

random take on the deerskin costume: it was said that it makes indigenous people uncomfortable due to its inaccuracy? would it be possibly to edit the costume to be more historically/culturally accurate?
if this isn’t possible or wouldn’t help the feelings of native americans please tell me!

[LordGhoul]

I find it fantastic that cs finally spoke out, first in support of LGBT+ and now BLM. People often say you should keep out of politics, but this isn't just politics, it's an issue of human rights. Nobody deserves to be mistreated just because of who they were born as, just because of who they are.

But meanwhile, some other cultures don’t even have a foot to stand on. What about Native Americans?

This is called whataboutism. It takes away from the current focus. People need to learn that they don't have to use other movements for themselves and try to shove themselves in, but instead start their own. Put resources together, educate people about the struggles, group up with other native people, plan protests. Though I'd recommend it once the situation has calmed down.
Black people have their own struggles and can't speak for native Americans, native Americans have to speak for themselves because they are the ones that best know their own struggles. That's why they need their own movement.

Though I must say that society already has improved and recognises racism and oppression better now, but there's still a long way to go until everyone is truely equal.

Also regarding free speech (I hope I censored correctly, edit it out when I didn't and I'll fix it next time)

[みりん〇°•]

Where is the lgbt+ post? I haven’t seen it before.