Does anyone else feel like Demand is killing CS?

[taurus ;]

@Anastasia

Yeah, I find it funny!

"OMG I can't trade this rat off, this trading system is so unfair!!!!"
"Ok. Would you accept that rat in a trade?"
"....Well...no...."

LOL!

[boston]

Another funny phenomenon? Everytime I optain pets that have quite the demand it suddenly seems to vanish with a *poof* and all I get are bad trades. This happens to me all the time.

yes bc people will try to low ball offers and then when they get that pet they value higher than what they traded for it.

[PandoraDiskenth]

It goes so much further than the rats, guys...

The UR tigerdog isn't even worth what it should be...

[taurus ;]

It goes so much further than the rats, guys...

The UR tigerdog isn't even worth what it should be...

That's everyone's first argument though. Rats this and rats that.

And how can something not be worth what it 'should' be, when a pet's worth is decided by the people on the site. What people will consistently give is what something is worth. Not 'once upon a time, people gave this and that for a UR Tigerdog, so that is forever it's worth'.

Don't know what makes people think that's how the CS trading system works lol.

[Aurora Storm]

Yikes, I feel like this is a risky discussion to have cause it always seems to create negativity.

No, I don't think demand is killing CS. But I do think it's a bit of a problem right now. The trading economy on CS has always been ruled by demand, and I highly doubt that will ever change. While it can be frustrating to know that a particular rat is worth more than a particular dog (for example), I do agree that you can't just flip a switch and force everyone to trade solely based on what a pet "should be worth". True value is a combination of rarity & demand, I think the community just needs to settle on more of a middle ground now that the list is retired. There's some very productive discussions happening on these two threads, as well as great factual evidence on current demand here, and rarity information here and here.

Basically I'm saying there's enough information around the place to combat the demand "problem", and it's just going to be a matter of people joining in the conversations and helping spread said information, rather than complain about a trading system that has been this way for 11 years. Just my two cents c:

[darkwater]

Yikes, I feel like this is a risky discussion to have cause it always seems to create negativity.

No, I don't think demand is killing CS. But I do think it's a bit of a problem right now. The trading economy on CS has always been ruled by demand, and I highly doubt that will ever change. While it can be frustrating to know that a particular rat is worth more than a particular dog (for example), I do agree that you can't just flip a switch and force everyone to trade solely based on what a pet "should be worth". True value is a combination of rarity & demand, I think the community just needs to settle on more of a middle ground now that the list is retired. There's some very productive discussions happening on these two threads, as well as great factual evidence on current demand here, and rarity information here and here.

Basically I'm saying there's enough information around the place to combat the demand "problem", and it's just going to be a matter of people joining in the conversations and helping spread said information, rather than complain about a trading system that has been this way for 11 years. Just my two cents c:

The thing is though the trading system hasn't always been this way. When I first joing I could trade 09 dogs for 08 just take the rarity and value into account. Back in 09 Black advents were uncommon and white advents were just the same. I cannot remember exactly how I got my first target dog or black advent, but I do know I was able to do trades when advents came around like hoarding blood dogs that I put time and energy in getting then trading them. I had the ornament PPS that I auctioned. I went around sending requests to users being very respectful and asking if they were okay with the trade. The thing that really irks me is now in the rules people state "If you don't leave a message I will leave your trade to rott" or "if I don't think your trade is fair I will just cancel/ignore it". The most annoying aspect to this is that these people are blatantly saying that they don't want to even bother working something out. I feel as if the heart is missing or is getting gutted because when people no longer respect the other party who to them are being fair/respectful then not only is someone being rude but feelings can get hurt. This is a game one meant to make people feel better not to tear them down.

Back to the original point though; when people are told "that isn't fair" or "you got ripped off" well whose right is it for someone to say that if both parties agreed to the trade in the first place. The thing that really hurts the site is by there being a "list or past list" or any list for that matter one is acknowledging that pets have more value then others. By then putting it in front of each person you are perpetuating the issue by putting a value on that pet. No longer is the trade between two parties but it is now "what is the site version of worth" instead of "what is the value I put it as" almost as if people loose any ability to think for themself. Now the rarity system was booted up so year should not technically matter anymore, but instead only the rarity of said pet. If people start thinking in that regards then maybe we can get somewhere.

What is killing this site is not just deman, but people being rude, disrespectful, and inconsiderate to the other player. People forget that their in another person on the other side of the screen and thus should treat them at face value rather then pretend that they don't have feelings/aspirations. As a player that has been on here off and on for the past 10 years something months I can state people are getting worse when it comes to trading. Yes there will always be demand, but with any form of list that just allows the community to blow it out of proportion. I voted to retire the list, but I didn't want to retire it I wanted it buried to where no player could see it and I certainly didn't want players to create their own list to put in other peoples faces. Lets face it the list is created by a small group of people on cs then the rest take that at face value for proof of worth/making it all "over priced". At the end of the day though I just wish people just did what they did in the past based it on their own system and not get upset with another player because their perception of "value" was off. I have played many many games and I know that when people create something that is not there it can shake an entire economy which is what everyone is experiencing. I trade here and there but honestly I don't get out of it what I use to people don't even really message or if a trade is sent out its just cancelled. I am not bitter but I could see how it could discourage new and old players alike...even those that occassionally come back because we just see things worsen as the years go by and pets become older/more elusive.

[skyline]

Yikes, I feel like this is a risky discussion to have cause it always seems to create negativity.

No, I don't think demand is killing CS. But I do think it's a bit of a problem right now. The trading economy on CS has always been ruled by demand, and I highly doubt that will ever change. While it can be frustrating to know that a particular rat is worth more than a particular dog (for example), I do agree that you can't just flip a switch and force everyone to trade solely based on what a pet "should be worth". True value is a combination of rarity & demand, I think the community just needs to settle on more of a middle ground now that the list is retired. There's some very productive discussions happening on these two threads, as well as great factual evidence on current demand here, and rarity information here and here.

Basically I'm saying there's enough information around the place to combat the demand "problem", and it's just going to be a matter of people joining in the conversations and helping spread said information, rather than complain about a trading system that has been this way for 11 years. Just my two cents c:

very well said. as for my opinion, i think it can definitely cause problems, but i certainly don't think it's "killing" the site. it's also important to remember a good majority of users just use cs for the forums/oekaki. if you think about it, there's really no other way to go about trading. even before the list was retired, there was never something that gave us the exact rarity or value of certain pets, so we had to make the best of what we knew. there still isn't, and never will be. admins have bluntly stated they do have this information, but never plan to release it. so demand will always be an aspect of trading, as it is on really every site that has a trading or rarity system.

i get that sometimes it can be deterring for new users, but it's part of the fun of the game. if everything was easy to get, it'd defeat the purpose of collections and such. though, i will say some pets, for example the skelebun, can be ridiculous. store pets are different though, since they will never be released again, and will only climb in rarity. so people naturally took advantage of that after realizing it. generally, demand has it's pros and cons, but it's really unfair to say it's "killing" or "ruining" the site because that's just not true. us as users, created it in the first place after all, and "cooler" looking pets, even not stores, i.e the joker, galaxy dogs, are obviously going to be more sought after than pets with a more unappealing design, i'm sorry, but that's just the truth.

additionally, the end part of that copypasta thing, (from the front page, first post) isn't necessarily true either, so it's frustrating to me seeing people spread that around. it again, was only created by rough estimates, and likely broken sources, which are very likely to be false, or at least somewhat so. information that is not absolutely certain should not be spread like that. it's toxic itself in a sense, more so than valuing a joker at a non and a half would ever be.

ironic to me that people can make jokes and spark arguments about this when they don't actually really understand it.

i apologize if i came off as rude or something, but this topic can get frustrating to me as a long time avid trader.

[Aurora Storm]

very well said. i think it can definitely cause problems, but i certainly don't think it's "killing" the site. it's also important to remember a good majority of users just use cs for the forums/oekaki. if you think about it, there's really no other way to go about trading. even before the list was retired, there was never something that gave us the exact rarity or value of certain pets, so we had to make the best of what we knew. demand will always be an aspect of trading, as it is on really every site that has a trading or rarity system.

i get that sometimes it can be deterring for new users, but it's part of the fun of the game. if everything was easy to get, it'd defeat the purpose of collections and such. though, i will say some pets, for example the skelebun, can be ridiculous. store pets are different though, since they will never be released again, and will only climb in rarity. so people naturally took advantage of that after realizing it. generally, demand has it's pros and cons, but it's really unfair to say it's "killing" or "ruining" the site because that's just not true. us as users, created it in the first place after all, and "cooler" looking pets, even not stores, i.e the joker, galaxy dogs, are obviously going to be more sought after than pets with a more unappealing design, i'm sorry, but that's just the truth.

additionally, the end part of that copypasta thing, (from the front page, first post) isn't necessarily true either, so it's frustrating to me seeing people spread that around. it again, was only created by rough estimates, and likely broken sources, which are very likely to be false, or at least somewhat so. information that is not absolutely certain should not be spread like that. it's toxic itself in a sense, more so than valuing a joker at a non and a half would ever be.

Yep, I agree. It definitely needs to be reined in, but it will always be there and will likely always control trading for the most part.
Although, I will say the copypasta thing is actually all true information. It's based on rarity change data, which you really can't argue with. But as I said, true value is demand as well as rarity, so the Joker going for more than the UR Apple is unlikely to change since it was like that before the Joker even turned VR.

The thing is though the trading system hasn't always been this way. When I first joing I could trade 09 dogs for 08 just take the rarity and value into account. Back in 09 Black advents were uncommon and white advents were just the same. I cannot remember exactly how I got my first target dog or black advent, but I do know I was able to do trades when advents came around like hoarding blood dogs that I put time and energy in getting then trading them. I had the ornament PPS that I auctioned. I went around sending requests to users being very respectful and asking if they were okay with the trade. The thing that really irks me is now in the rules people state "If you don't leave a message I will leave your trade to rott" or "if I don't think your trade is fair I will just cancel/ignore it". The most annoying aspect to this is that these people are blatantly saying that they don't want to even bother working something out. I feel as if the heart is missing or is getting gutted because when people no longer respect the other party who to them are being fair/respectful then not only is someone being rude but feelings can get hurt. This is a game one meant to make people feel better not to tear them down.

Back to the original point though; when people are told "that isn't fair" or "you got ripped off" well whose right is it for someone to say that if both parties agreed to the trade in the first place. The thing that really hurts the site is by there being a "list or past list" or any list for that matter one is acknowledging that pets have more value then others. By then putting it in front of each person you are perpetuating the issue by putting a value on that pet. No longer is the trade between two parties but it is now "what is the site version of worth" instead of "what is the value I put it as" almost as if people loose any ability to think for themself. Now the rarity system was booted up so year should not technically matter anymore, but instead only the rarity of said pet. If people start thinking in that regards then maybe we can get somewhere.

What is killing this site is not just deman, but people being rude, disrespectful, and inconsiderate to the other player. People forget that their in another person on the other side of the screen and thus should treat them at face value rather then pretend that they don't have feelings/aspirations. As a player that has been on here off and on for the past 10 years something months I can state people are getting worse when it comes to trading. Yes there will always be demand, but with any form of list that just allows the community to blow it out of proportion. I voted to retire the list, but I didn't want to retire it I wanted it buried to where no player could see it and I certainly didn't want players to create their own list to put in other peoples faces. Lets face it the list is created by a small group of people on cs then the rest take that at face value for proof of worth/making it all "over priced". At the end of the day though I just wish people just did what they did in the past based it on their own system and not get upset with another player because their perception of "value" was off. I have played many many games and I know that when people create something that is not there it can shake an entire economy which is what everyone is experiencing. I trade here and there but honestly I don't get out of it what I use to people don't even really message or if a trade is sent out its just cancelled. I am not bitter but I could see how it could discourage new and old players alike...even those that occassionally come back because we just see things worsen as the years go by and pets become older/more elusive.

I do actually agree with you! What I meant by the trading system being the same for 11 years is that demand has always been the main influence. Even before rarities were introduced, it was influencing it. We know that because the "values" back in 2008/early 2009 turned out to be a bit out of wack once pets had rarity tags; because demand affects availability, which affects how a pets rarity is perceived.

As for the overall, I guess, "energy" that demand is giving the site currently; I completely agree with you. The amount of trades I've had canceled without a message or something blunt like "No." or "Unfair." is insane compared to before my long hiatus in 2014. I do agree you should be able to trade a rare 2019 for an earlier rare (not ridiculously earlier) without it being received as scamming. The list was so widely accepted as fact when it was created by a very very small amount of people.

Rarity tags were created to help trading, and in a perfect world we'd all use them as they are without looking further into them and creating lists. But, demand exists. And we need rarity research (or even "lists") to combat that otherwise I reckon we'd have even more of a problem than we currently do. Am I making sense? I basically mean the CS trading system needs both to work the way that it does, because demand won't ever go away. It could be taken less seriously, though.

[darkwater]

Yes demand will always be there that I can always agree with and yes there will always be a pushuge to get these pets leading to bidding watts for people to very their dreams pet. I don't disagree with you.

I am saying though that by giving people an innate price tag by going "this is what we believe it is worth" people are just continuing that wheel of value. Think of it like this diamonds are worthless all they are is a rock, yet due to a scam 2 people created back in the day people started a tradition of buying a diamond ring for marriage. Soon this ideology became widely accepted which gas lead to extremely expensive jewellery. It does not stop there though the clarity of said diamond and color can expand that price tag quite a bit and people will pay for it. The thing I fibbing extremely hilarious is the chemistry of a diamond is actually the same as led just less stable. If people didn't widely accept this then people wouldn't be stealing. Overall it's a paucity issue we are facing when there is a list the person is just adding to that demand because now that pet that the person thought was normal is somehow special and people will milk it for all that it is worth. It's part of human nature and that's why people can see so much of the economy in a game it reflects on the outgoings of society.

Your right though in the way that if people just followed the rarity tag it would be better and maybe people should start there for directing players instead of finding this system where x vr pets equals one vr. The rarity was added so that 1=1 if people want to equal years then maybe a great difference equals +1 rare. I think that is where we should start.

I also completely agree an 09 should equal an 09 within a 6mo gap or perhaps the year as an entirety because those pets are now 10 years old and not as easy to find as they once were. It sadder bed me to have given away my entire collection then rebuild when I decided to come back because pets I once had are now lists and people get an insane amount for them. This once more adds to the issue of "value" a group of people added thus now people hoard because of such value. Just my perspective I could go on and on about it though I just see greed being the soul center of it all. Maybe players should stop and think of how they would like to be treated and think back in what it was like for them. I miss trading up back when even in 2010 it wasn't so hard. Now going up a year even if it's a month difference is like pulling teeth for some people

[lifequestions]

I wouldn't completely say 'killing' but definitely damaging.