Dog Owner Chat V. 5

[eleutheromania]

accidental litters can and do happen. no one is perfect even when it comes to dog breeding. so calling anyone with an accidental litter unethical is wrong. it’s a case by case basis and again no one is perfect, accidents happen even when you take all precautions cause it only takes a few seconds. and what is wrong with someone wanting to buy that 750$ puppy versus a shelter pup? what if said person is specifically looking for something in that dog versus one at a shelter, or cannot get approval from a shelter because they don’t have a fence, have young children, or intact animals. rescues are not perfect either. and my next dogs will probably never come from a rescue/shelter as i’m highly against pediatric spay and neuter and this is my opinion. i’ve grown up with rescue dogs and the majority had issues or we rehomed them when it became something my mother couldn’t handle. honestly you have no right to judge unless you yourself keep breeding dogs and have experience working with breeders with multiple dogs.

unless you specifically know this person, you shouldn’t be calling them unethical and a bad owner as you know not the entirety of the situation and how this person treats their animals. nor should you be assuming she’s gonna have another litter etc etc. there is a difference between educational information and asumming someone isn’t knowledge about their own dogs and not doing the right thing or let it happen again.

@sky ; sounds like your aunt has a good plan in the long run. awesome she finished a dog in fast cat too.

[EchoOfShatteredIce]

(just posting so I can return to this thread)

[PemCorgis]

Super proud of my perfect girl yesterday! We went up to a dock event last minute and she got her first twin Qs towards her novice title! Should get her novice title at the Easter trial provided she doesn’t start jumping into the next level 😂

First Q was 3.6ft and was more of a plop but her second was a actual jump and she hit 5ft! Not super far yet but hopefully now that she knows she can jump we will get further in the future!

She's so gorgeous!! How did you get into dock diving? I've actually never thought about getting the boys into it. Any suggestions for where to start?

[eff]

accidental litters can and do happen. no one is perfect even when it comes to dog breeding. so calling anyone with an accidental litter unethical is wrong. it’s a case by case basis and again no one is perfect, accidents happen even when you take all precautions cause it only takes a few seconds. and what is wrong with someone wanting to buy that 750$ puppy versus a shelter pup? what if said person is specifically looking for something in that dog versus one at a shelter, or cannot get approval from a shelter because they don’t have a fence, have young children, or intact animals. rescues are not perfect either. and my next dogs will probably never come from a rescue/shelter as i’m highly against pediatric spay and neuter and this is my opinion. i’ve grown up with rescue dogs and the majority had issues or we rehomed them when it became something my mother couldn’t handle. honestly you have no right to judge unless you yourself keep breeding dogs and have experience working with breeders with multiple dogs.

unless you specifically know this person, you shouldn’t be calling them unethical and a bad owner as you know not the entirety of the situation and how this person treats their animals. nor should you be assuming she’s gonna have another litter etc etc. there is a difference between educational information and asumming someone isn’t knowledge about their own dogs and not doing the right thing or let it happen again.

@sky ; sounds like your aunt has a good plan in the long run. awesome she finished a dog in fast cat too.

i agree with this, definitely.

[Skysong]

The drive from Mississippi is killer when she has issues driving for that long with a dog.

Her girls speeds.
Sasha runs at 26.17 mph.
Alexis runs at 25.6
Cymber runs at 28, and she’s still in the D class.
Alana runs at 25.7, also still in D class.

Sasha and Alexis are 4 years old.
Cymber and Alana are 3.

Xane is turning 3 this month.

[eleutheromania]

that’s fast but then again i’ve never clocked dog speeds or done fast cat though i’d happily get into it if i had the resources around me.

@prem ; easiest way is to find a dock or dock diving facility around you. i know mine is 2 hours from me and on the coast. unfortunately none of my three are water lovers so it’s not a sport i can start until i get my BC puppy in the next coming years. your dog has to enjoy the water so maybe taking them out to lakes, beaches etc to see how they do first would be a good start. then you could possible find the dock diving facility and work with the people there to build the confidence for your dog to jump off a dock. dock diving is sometimes at dog events such as shows but you have to search for it and register to practice on it with your dog for a certain time and then from there get some qualifying jumps. it’s awesome to watch

[Imzadi83]

accidental litters can and do happen. no one is perfect even when it comes to dog breeding. so calling anyone with an accidental litter unethical is wrong. it’s a case by case basis and again no one is perfect, accidents happen even when you take all precautions cause it only takes a few seconds. and what is wrong with someone wanting to buy that 750$ puppy versus a shelter pup? what if said person is specifically looking for something in that dog versus one at a shelter, or cannot get approval from a shelter because they don’t have a fence, have young children, or intact animals. rescues are not perfect either. and my next dogs will probably never come from a rescue/shelter as i’m highly against pediatric spay and neuter and this is my opinion. i’ve grown up with rescue dogs and the majority had issues or we rehomed them when it became something my mother couldn’t handle. honestly you have no right to judge unless you yourself keep breeding dogs and have experience working with breeders with multiple dogs.

unless you specifically know this person, you shouldn’t be calling them unethical and a bad owner as you know not the entirety of the situation and how this person treats their animals. nor should you be assuming she’s gonna have another litter etc etc. there is a difference between educational information and asumming someone isn’t knowledge about their own dogs and not doing the right thing or let it happen again.

@sky ; sounds like your aunt has a good plan in the long run. awesome she finished a dog in fast cat too.

Accidental litters should never happen, it's not that hard to prevent them. And again, you don't have to have an intact dog if you don't think your situation is one in which you can handle them. I'm sure there are rare circumstances (a dog dashing out when firemen are forced to break down the door), but for the most part allowing your dog to become pregnant accidentally is irresponsible. Just like it is irresponsible to not latch your gate and then your dog gets out and gets hit by a car. That doesn't mean you're evil, or that everything else you do is bad, or that you can't be a good dog owner otherwise; but that single act is irresponsible and people need to know that those things should not happen so that they can prevent them. So while some accidents can happen, most of the time they are preventable through education and caution on the part of the dog owner. Talking about it, letting people know the risks, is how people can stop, think, and prevent accidents from happening in the first place.

I'm not sure what you mean by "real breeder who work under kennel club". There are plenty of irresponsible breeders who get AKC papers for their dogs, most puppy mill dogs have papers. While responsible breeders should, in my opinion, show their dog (as a way to find out if it's worth breeding and to prevent kennel blindness) and follow ethical guidelines set forth by their breed club that doesn't mean that everyone who gets their dog AKC or other kennel club registration are by definition responsible.

@eleutheromania - Again, I'm not calling everything this person has or ever will do wrong. But allowing your dog to become pregnant accidentally is a mistake. You all are right in that I don't know this person. Maybe they will take steps to prevent it in the future, I hope they will. Maybe they won't and they are one of those people who will do nothing while the female continues to breed and pump out puppies cause after all the owner she took good care of them and found them homes after the fact right? I don't know, but I bring it up so that people when considering getting a puppy can be aware of things they might want to find out before they decide to support a breeder by purchasing a puppy from them.

I understand that there are good and bad rescues. That's kind of my point, in that there are also good and bad breeders. Good breeders breed with a purpose doing everything possible to ensure the health and well being of the future puppies. Breeding pet quality dogs for fun or profit while pet quality dogs die in shelters by the millions is responsible and is unethical in my opinion. I realize this may vary by location (living on a small island with remote access is a lot different from living in the US for instance in terms of access to a pet) but I thought people could figure this part out on their own so I didn't go into it. I'm sorry if it caused confusion.

I, again, have no problem with responsible breeders. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about people who buy the cheap BYB puppy because it's cheaper than going to responsible breeder. People that have fooled themselves or are unaware of the risks of what they are actually supporting. Responsible breeders are just as picky, sometimes more then rescues, with who they sell a puppy too. They don't want, and will prevent in some way, their pet quality dogs being bred because they do not want to contribute to the pet overpopulation and subsequent death of dogs.

I'm not sure why you're going off on pediatric spays and neuters as, there are other alternatives both surgical and non. Some breeders may have blanket polices, others may go based on individuals. Some spay/neuter, some have in the contract that the puppy must be altered by a certain time, others have a no-breed clause and keep up with the buyers. My point was that they should make some attempt to prevent these puppies from growing up and producing more puppies.

I am also concerned about pediatric spays and neuters but personally would rather see someone choose that route rather then another litter of puppies have to be euthanized in shelters or end up in unsuitable homes, dumped in shelters and then killed later on. That's my opinion, yours may be different and that is fine. Personally I wish more shelters would offer ovary-sparing spays, tubal ligation, and vasectomy as options but unfortunately it does not seem practical right now.

As far as judging goes, yes I suppose I do judge some BYBs very poorly (puppy mills for example), and all of them if they choose to continue on with poor breeding practices that lead to dogs dying in shelters. Those same dogs you said you didn't want to deal with again came from BYBs. If we don't stop them from breeding via education to both potential breeders and puppy buyers dogs are going to keep dying in shelters. I understand if you can't/don't want another rescue dog, I don't judge you for that. I just want everyone to be educated by the information in choosing a breeder so you or anyone don't end up with the same problems you avoided going to a shelter for, and could have been prevented through responsible breeding.

That's my opinion. And you're right I don't know the BYB in this instance. If I met them I may like them and think they are otherwise a good dog owner/person. I wish that they had been more responsible and prevented this accident from happening, which if they are a good dog owner they will wish too. I hope they will be more responsible in the future. Personally I would would want to ask them that before deciding whether to support them by buying a puppy from them. That's my point, I want people to have the information so that they can ask questions and make decisions.

@hyde - This is a discussion thread so yes, I guess I do feel it is my place if I wish to discuss something. I think you're making assumptions about what I'm saying. This litter was bred unethically and irresponsibly. If they are otherwise a good dog owner they would likely agree and take steps (whatever is appropriate in the specific situation) to make sure it never happens again, that those puppies never wind up in shelters/rescues, that they don't produce more puppies that could wind up having problems or end up in shelters/rescues etc. Vaccinating and feeding is great, but it isn't the be all and end all of responsibility. I just want people to be aware of that. Ultimately what you or anyone else does with that information is their choice. But I have met so many people who felt duped and cheated, watched their pet suffer, etc. because they did not know what to look out for or what questions to ask. There are people who may breed responsibly now who may have breed irresponsibly in the past who if they had been better informed may not have had to learn the hard.

Take Pippin for example, say you knew for sure his problem was genetic but even knowing that the breeder continued to breed puppies from the same parents. Would you find that ethical so long as the puppies were vaccinated & feed? Wouldn't you want, in that instance, for them to instead acknowledge the problem and fix it? And how can we, as a dog loving society, fix any problems if we don't talk about it and hold accountable the people who've caused problems in the first place? I'm not talking torches and pitchforks, I'm talking about..well...talk. Know what you're getting into, what you may be potentially be supporting and make and informed decision.

[eff]

No, I think you are the one making assumptions. I didn't say ethical breeding was simply vaccinating, feeding and caring for a litter. It was up to you to assume that. Giving the dog it's fundamentals, especially when they did not expect or want a litter, is the best that they could possibly doing. You talking so negatively and harshly towards people who have had accidental litters is really frustrating.

Even though it has already been mentioned, I'll say it again:

It isn't up to you to say someone, who you haven't met and know nothing about, is an unethical breeder.

I really do think you are being fairly aggressive towards anyone who is disagreeing with you, even if you cannot believe that you are being aggressive. They can happen, if you want them to or not. Some people don't want to neuter or spay their dogs. I don't think that that is necessarily right, but they could have their own reasons for it. Sometimes, a dog can escape and get pregnant or impregnate a bitch. That is something that does happen and forever will happen.

Sometimes, plans are made to neuter and spay your dog, but it gets held back.

Is it my fault, am I irresponsible, because Pippin's seizures delayed being neutered? Is medical problems, that limit or temporarily prevent being neutered/spayed, an appropriate excuse to label someone as a Backyard Breeder after an accidental and further unavoidable litter?

The fact you say that they should never happen is ignorant in itself. It isn't ideal, for either parties; rescues and the "breeder", but it happens regardless of your ideology.

You can't label talking down to someone as educational. I am pretty sure a large portion of society understands from the constant adverts, charity shops, etc. that animal charities and rescues are filling up quickly. I believe that any dog is for life, generally. Yet circumstances happen. I would not keep my dog if it negatively affected them after unforeseen issues had arisen. If the owner cannot raise or let the dog live its life to the best of its abilities, then shelters should come into play.

Now, if someone is running a puppy mill, that is completely different. I would label them as BYB, over someone who had an accidental litter.

[.Kira Nightblade.]

Soo me, my sis, and mom went to an escape room Saturday, and in the lobby there was this adorable named Ace ^.^ (which last year when browsing my shelter's site I actually saw his pic and name there) They got him from a shelter and he's a lab mix, most likely has some pittbull in him, (he looks like a puppy in the pic XD)
Anyways, he was sooo sweet and adorable and just drank in the attention ^.^
Just wanted to share this 'cause he's adorable XD

[Imzadi83]

No, I think you are the one making assumptions. I didn't say ethical breeding was simply vaccinating, feeding and caring for a litter. It was up to you to assume that. Giving the dog it's fundamentals, especially when they did not expect or want a litter, is the best that they could possibly doing. You talking so negatively and harshly towards people who have had accidental litters is really frustrating.

Even though it has already been mentioned, I'll say it again:

It isn't up to you to say someone, who you haven't met and know nothing about, is an unethical breeder.

I really do think you are being fairly aggressive towards anyone who is disagreeing with you, even if you cannot believe that you are being aggressive. They can happen, if you want them to or not. Some people don't want to neuter or spay their dogs. I don't think that that is necessarily right, but they could have their own reasons for it. Sometimes, a dog can escape and get pregnant or impregnate a bitch. That is something that does happen and forever will happen.

Sometimes, plans are made to neuter and spay your dog, but it gets held back.

Is it my fault, am I irresponsible, because Pippin's seizures delayed being neutered? Is medical problems, that limit or temporarily prevent being neutered/spayed, an appropriate excuse to label someone as a Backyard Breeder after an accidental and further unavoidable litter?

The fact you say that they should never happen is ignorant in itself. It isn't ideal, for either parties; rescues and the "breeder", but it happens regardless of your ideology.

You can't label talking down to someone as educational. I am pretty sure a large portion of society understands from the constant adverts, charity shops, etc. that animal charities and rescues are filling up quickly. I believe that any dog is for life, generally. Yet circumstances happen. I would not keep my dog if it negatively affected them after unforeseen issues had arisen. If the owner cannot raise or let the dog live its life to the best of its abilities, then shelters should come into play.

Now, if someone is running a puppy mill, that is completely different. I would label them as BYB, over someone who had an accidental litter.

I'm sorry you feel I'm talking down to people, that is truly not my intent. I'm sorry if I come off that way.

As you stated owning a dog is a big responsibility, owning an intact one even more so. It's not hard to keep your dog from getting out and creating an unplanned litter. If it is too hard then they should not have an intact dog at that time. And yes, all accidental litters are by definition irresponsible and backyard breeders. Again, they could be responsible dog owners in every other way and go on to become fantastic responsible breeders, but in that way at that time they were not. That doesn't mean they will always be irresponsible breeders, that is up to them. Pretending that their mistakes weren't mistakes or that it isn't contributing to the problem may make them feel better but it won't help in the long run.

Even if you are right about a large portion of society understanding that shelters and rescues are filling up quickly, they don't seem to be able to tell a responsible breeder from a irresponsible one. So many people end up with buyers remorse because they were never taught what questions to ask before buying a puppy. Also many people who are not suitable homes for puppies are able to buy one because BYBs will sell them one.

No, it's not your fault that Pippin's neuter had to be delayed because of health issues. But if he gets out and sires an unplanned litter than that would be your fault and/or the fault of any other adults who's care he is in. Again, that wouldn't make you a bad person or a bad dog owner overall, but in that way at that time you (or other adult in charge) would have made a mistake and done something irresponsible. I wouldn't wish ill of you but if I was potentially buying one of those puppies I would want to know that you were taking steps to prevent the same thing again from happening in the future, and that I wasn't supporting you while you continued to be careless in the same way. I can see why if you were in the backyard breeder's position that could come off as hostile, but I would hope if they loved dogs they would realize the danger that put their dog in, that it was an irresponsible thing to happen, and they would want to make sure it didn't happen again.

I'm not saying true accidents don't happen, but the majority of the time when we look back we can see where we went wrong. That's what I want people who have an accidental litter to do so that it doesn't happen again. And I want people who have an intact dog to look at what can happen, see the mistakes of others, and make sure it doesn't happen to them in the first place.

@.Kira.Nightblade. - Aw he's adorable. I love going into place and finding a dog there. It always makes my day brighter.