The 'How much is this pet worth in C$?' Thread!
The 'How much is this pet worth in C$?' Thread!
by ElementalInsanity » Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:17 am
Updates! wrote:
Update: 2o22 new year has been added and the lists have been adjusted accordingly
Update: 2o21 year added in to most of the c$ pricing.
Update: November 18, 2o2o- some uncommon list updates
Update: March 2, 2o19- thread layout updates, rares list section updated with rares list being discontinued.
Update 21-09-2018-Lay-out changes, list will be updated soon
Update 26/10/15 Some lay-out updates for the thread!
Update 10/13/15 - Please read the first post!
Update 7/27/15 - The big change, we re-worked the list (blaine+DaDwarf), it's up to date!
- So at one time or another, we have all wondered how much a pet and/or item is worth in CS$. Simply read the rest of this post and you will find all the values you need!
The way the pricing works, is through a few systems. By knowing how much the pet is worth initially, you can guesstimate a price for CS$. Please keep in mind that these fluctuate; certain people are simply willing to pay more for pets that they like (think of hoards, or overpaying for dreamies), etc. Also, older, rarer pets are worth quite a lot in CS$. The rarer a pet is, the more it costs.
The links might help:
Pet Information Guide
VR and OMGSR Successful Trades
The Guide index
The 'How much is this pet worth?' Thread'
The 'how to use the search function' guide
Guide to CS Rarity Histories & Rarity List
Rarity Change Archive
The *Discontinued* Rareslist Guide
Last edited by ElementalInsanity on Mon Jan 03, 2022 5:44 am, edited 11 times in total.
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Rules and Contents
by ElementalInsanity » Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:17 am
- All Tess's rules apply.
- When asking, please provide a name, picture, date and rarity. This is very important! without rarity, we can't tell you what it's worth! In addition, when posting items, please provide their worth in pets.
- Do not take all answers to be fact.
- Please, Do Not try to remake this thread. I (ElementalInsanity) will remake the thread myself when it reaches 900+ pages.
- Please be polite and Please be patient. Both Patience & Politeness will get you helped faster!
- Please use the search function before asking a question.
- Only post once per page. Do not quote yourself on the same page to get an answer faster.
Rules
- Rules and Contents (Here)
- FAQ and Info
- Uncommons and Below
- Rares/Very Rares
- Store Pets
- Discontinued Rares List
- Thank Yous
Contents
Last edited by ElementalInsanity on Thu Jan 21, 2021 3:41 pm, edited 13 times in total.
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FAQ and Info
by ElementalInsanity » Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:18 am
FAQ and Info
If you have any questions not answered here feel free to ask on the thread!
• Do Uncommons have set prices?
No they do not. There are a few frequent C$ users who have made up boxes of what they personally value Uncommons and below at which you can find here.
• Why are rares and very rares the same price?
They aren’t necessarily. This is where personal preference would come into play in this guide and some may value their very rare around the same C$ wise as a rare or may value it a lot more. Keep in mind this is and always has been just a guide for people to be able to use.
• Why is a Very Rare Store pet worth a rare of an earlier year?
By rarity it isn’t. A rare is less than a very rare and a very rare is less than an OMGSR. When comparing C$ worth is how it becomes ‘worth’ that of an earlier rare. Example: A 2010 rare was valued at 20-25C$. A new in store store pet is bought with 20C$. By C$ value and comparison the C$ worth is the same. C$ worth is completely different than pet worth. This is where personal preference, views, and decisions come into play.
• Why can a rare store pet and very rare store pet be valued the same?
They were both bought with the same amount of C$.
• Why is this not updated?
All of this thread is updated through discussion and normal updating yearly.
The only thing that is not updated and won’t be updated is the discontinued rares list section.
• Why doesn’t C$ add up like pet worth?
(Updated answer with The Rares List Discontinuation)
Example: X is worth 4 nons. Wouldn’t it be worth 4000C$ then?
Pet worth is different than C$ worth. It’s never advised to add it like that. C$ wasn’t totaled like that when The Rares List was active. It’s discontinuation doesn’t change that C$ is different than demand/user pet worth.
Keep in mind the USD value as well. 1USD=19C$. 2000C$=105USD and so on.
It would be better if you’re wanting x amount of pet worth of C$ from your pet to trade it down and then sell those pets for C$.
• What does C$ convert to in USD?
1USD = 19CS$ (This is assuming the person buys the biggest amount of CS).
If you have any questions not answered here feel free to ask on the thread!
• Do Uncommons have set prices?
No they do not. There are a few frequent C$ users who have made up boxes of what they personally value Uncommons and below at which you can find here.
• Why are rares and very rares the same price?
They aren’t necessarily. This is where personal preference would come into play in this guide and some may value their very rare around the same C$ wise as a rare or may value it a lot more. Keep in mind this is and always has been just a guide for people to be able to use.
• Why is a Very Rare Store pet worth a rare of an earlier year?
By rarity it isn’t. A rare is less than a very rare and a very rare is less than an OMGSR. When comparing C$ worth is how it becomes ‘worth’ that of an earlier rare. Example: A 2010 rare was valued at 20-25C$. A new in store store pet is bought with 20C$. By C$ value and comparison the C$ worth is the same. C$ worth is completely different than pet worth. This is where personal preference, views, and decisions come into play.
• Why can a rare store pet and very rare store pet be valued the same?
They were both bought with the same amount of C$.
• Why is this not updated?
All of this thread is updated through discussion and normal updating yearly.
The only thing that is not updated and won’t be updated is the discontinued rares list section.
• Why doesn’t C$ add up like pet worth?
(Updated answer with The Rares List Discontinuation)
Example: X is worth 4 nons. Wouldn’t it be worth 4000C$ then?
Pet worth is different than C$ worth. It’s never advised to add it like that. C$ wasn’t totaled like that when The Rares List was active. It’s discontinuation doesn’t change that C$ is different than demand/user pet worth.
Keep in mind the USD value as well. 1USD=19C$. 2000C$=105USD and so on.
It would be better if you’re wanting x amount of pet worth of C$ from your pet to trade it down and then sell those pets for C$.
• What does C$ convert to in USD?
1USD = 19CS$ (This is assuming the person buys the biggest amount of CS).
blaine wrote:Why don't C$ values add up like pets?
Many people ask, "a mid advent is worth 7 09 rares, and an 09 rare is anywhere from 30-45C$. But the mid advent is only listed at 85C$! Shouldn't it be 210-315C$?"
There is a reason why we don't do this.
19C$ = $1 US Dollar
An 09 rare is roughly 30C$. (Just using this as a middle ground, they can be more or less.)
A mid advent is 7 09 rares, so 210C$. ($11 USD - that's already a lot.)
A blue rose dog is worth 7 mid advents, so that would be 1,470C$, or $77 USD. That's a lot of money.
And to take a big jump, a nondog is worth 36 blue roses. That would be 52,920C$, or $2,785 USD.
And finally, a sunjewel is worth 5 nondogs. 264,600C$ or $13,926 USD.
This is why we simply cannot use rarity math like this. A sunjewel right now, at 1840C$, is worth $105 USD which is still a lot of money, but clearly a lot more doable than nearly 14k.
I'm paying C$ for multiple pets! What do I do?
When paying for multiple pets, always convert all the pets to C$ individually, and then add it up, no matter if it's a list pet or a normal value.
If you're paying for 2 09 rares (say 2 mid 09s) you have to pay 70C$ (35C$+35C$). You can't add up the pets first and then convert to C$.
For example, if you're paying for a Sorbet and a Red X PPS in the same trade. They are worth a Blue Toxic together, in pets. However, the sorbet is worth 765C$, and the PPS is worth 380C$. You have to pay their prices individually (1145C$). You can't just add them up and pay for a blue toxic, which is only 790C$. I know this is weird and a bit confusing, but it's just how we have to treat C$ values! ^^
Last edited by ElementalInsanity on Tue Apr 14, 2020 1:56 am, edited 14 times in total.
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Uncommons and Below
by ElementalInsanity » Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:18 am
Notes to keep in mind:
As of an archive look over in January 2021 there are no longer any 2008 uncommons
There is no 'set' price for a c/uc; it changes depending on the pet AND per person!
For those asking about common/uncommon values: there really is no set value for these as they are so common. Their value will be below that of a rare, or whatever price you find reasonable.
It's important to note that pet values should be based on the last year they were available in. Check the guide for extended release pets to see if your pet is worth something different from the date you see.
Please note that these prices do not go for every single individual pet!! Once again, they are BALLPARK ESTIMATES! They may differ from person to person!
As of an archive look over in January 2021 there are no longer any 2008 uncommons
There is no 'set' price for a c/uc; it changes depending on the pet AND per person!
For those asking about common/uncommon values: there really is no set value for these as they are so common. Their value will be below that of a rare, or whatever price you find reasonable.
It's important to note that pet values should be based on the last year they were available in. Check the guide for extended release pets to see if your pet is worth something different from the date you see.
Please note that these prices do not go for every single individual pet!! Once again, they are BALLPARK ESTIMATES! They may differ from person to person!
- Uncommon and below pets
Pets uncommon and below DO NOT have a set value!
This cannot be stressed enough. Everyone values these differently, especially recent commons/uncommons. It depends largely on demand/species, so there is no price list that can be made. These are our lists, which you are free to use to price things - but remember, these are NOT set values! This is just a guide you may use if you wish.
lucky333123's List wrote:(There are no longer 2008 uncommons)
A 2009 uncommon I personally value at 13-15C$
A 2010 uncommon I personally value at 11-12C$
A 2011 uncommon I personally value at 9-10C$
A 2012 uncommon I personally value at 8-9C$
A 2013 uncommon I personally value at 6-7C$
A 2014 uncommon I personally value at 5-6C$
A 2015 uncommon I personally value at 4-5C$
A 2016 uncommon I personally value at 3-4 C$
A 2017 uncommon I personally value at 2C$
A 2018 uncommon I personally value at 1.5C$
A 2019 uncommon I personally value at 1C$
A 2020 uncommon I personally value at 0.75C$
A 2021 uncommon I personally value at 0.5C$
A 2022 uncommon I personally value at 0.25C$
Eagle's Eye's List wrote: (There are no longer 2008 uncommons)
A 2009 uncommon I personally value at 13-15C$
A 2010 uncommon I personally value at 11-12C$
A 2011 uncommon I personally value at 9-10C$
A 2012 uncommon I personally value at 8-9C$
A 2013 uncommon I personally value at 6-7C$
A 2014 uncommon I personally value at 5-6C$
A 2015 uncommon I personally value at 4-5C$
A 2016 uncommon I personally value at 3-4 C$
A 2017 uncommon I personally value at 2C$
A 2018 uncommon I personally value at 1.5C$
A 2019 uncommon I personally value at 1C$
A 2020 uncommon I personally value at 0.75C$
A 2021 uncommon I personally value at 0.75C$
A 2022 uncommon I personally value at 0.5C$
ElementalInsanity’s List wrote:I'll pay/ask for more or less depending on personal preference.
('There are no longer 2008 uncommons)
'09 uncommon I personally value as 10-15 C$
'10 uncommon I personally value as 10-15 C$
'11 uncommon I personally value as 7-11 C$
'12 uncommon I personally value as 5-7 C$
'13 uncommon I personally value as 4-6 C$
'14 uncommon I personally value as 3-4 C$
'15 uncommon I personally value as 2-3 C$
'16 uncommon I personally value at 2 C$
'17 uncommon I personally value at 1-2 C$
'18 uncommon I personally value at 1-2 C$
'19 uncommon I personally value at 1 C$
‘20 uncommon I personally value at 1 C$
‘21 uncommon I personally value at .5 C$
‘22 uncommon I personally value at .25 c$
I cut it about in half for commons
Last edited by ElementalInsanity on Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:02 am, edited 21 times in total.
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Rares/Very Rares
by ElementalInsanity » Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:33 am
Rares and Very Rares
For those asking about common/uncommon values: there really is no set value for these as they are so common. Their value will be below that of a rare, or whatever price you find reasonable.
It's important to note that pet values should be based on the last year they were available in. Check the guide for extended release pets to see if your pet is worth something different from the date you see.
Please note that these prices do not go for every single individual pet!! Once again, they are BALLPARK ESTIMATES! They may differ from person to person!
Very Rares from any year can go for more depending on personal preference, species, demand, and other factors.
For those asking about common/uncommon values: there really is no set value for these as they are so common. Their value will be below that of a rare, or whatever price you find reasonable.
It's important to note that pet values should be based on the last year they were available in. Check the guide for extended release pets to see if your pet is worth something different from the date you see.
Please note that these prices do not go for every single individual pet!! Once again, they are BALLPARK ESTIMATES! They may differ from person to person!
Very Rares from any year can go for more depending on personal preference, species, demand, and other factors.
- Note: There is no set C$ number for an OMGSR of any year.
An 08 rare/very rare is worth roughly 50-60C$ (Depending on species/demand) Keep in mind many of the older pets of this year are valued at more and can go for more.
A 2009 rare/very rare is worth around 35-55C$
A 2010 rare/very rare is worth around 25-40C$
A 2011 rare/very rare is worth around 20-25C$
A 2012 rare/very rare is worth around 18-21C$
A 2013 rare/very rare is worth around 17-19C$
A 2014 rare/very rare is worth around 15-18C$
A 2015 rare/very rare is worth around 12-15C$
A 2016 rare/very rare is worth around 10-12C$
A 2017 rare/very rare is worth around 8-10C$
A 2018 rare/very rare is worth around 6-8C$
A 2019 rare/very rare is worth around 4-6C$
A 2020 rare is worth around 3-5C$
A 2021 rare is worth around 2-4C$
A 2022 rare is worth around 1-3C$
Last edited by ElementalInsanity on Mon Jan 03, 2022 5:38 am, edited 12 times in total.
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Store Pets
by ElementalInsanity » Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:29 pm
Store Pets
Please note that these prices do not go for every single individual pet!! Once again, they are BALLPARK ESTIMATES! They may differ from person to person!
Concerning store pets, any after 2010 bought in December were also available into the January of the next year.
This store pet information guide contains some good information if you want to read it and make decisions for your older store pets.
What are different store pets worth?
Please note that these prices do not go for every single individual pet!! Once again, they are BALLPARK ESTIMATES! They may differ from person to person!
Concerning store pets, any after 2010 bought in December were also available into the January of the next year.
This store pet information guide contains some good information if you want to read it and make decisions for your older store pets.
What are different store pets worth?
- Almost all 2009 store pets are OMGSR. Keep that in mind when deciding a C$ pricing for them.
2009-2012: Due to their age and fluctuating demand these store pets do not have a set C$ price. It’s suggested to look at the following threads to see their rarity compared to others and to see what they are currently trading for.
Guide To Rarities (by Aurora Storm)
Very Rare and OMGSR Successful Trades
Rarity Change Archive (by LufikER)
Recent Trading Values
(2013 store pets have fluctuating demand!)
2013 store pets are worth around 65-70C$
2014 store pets are worth around 60-65C$
2015 store pets are worth around 55-60C$
2016 store pets are worth around 50-55C$
2017 store pets are worth around 45-50C$
2018 store pets are worth around 40-45C$
2019 store pets are worth around 35-40C$
2020 store pets are worth around 33-35C$
2021 store pets are worth around 30-33C$
2022 store pets are worth around 25-29C$
A store pet currently in the store is worth 25C$!
As store pets get older, their worth rises but it rises slowly!
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*Discontinued* The Rares List C$ Guide
by ElementalInsanity » Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:33 pm
The rares list has been discontinued as of March 1, 2o19 and will no longer be updated. These values will remain here for anyone that wants a rough reference but will no longer be updated yearly. If you would like to continue using the rares list and C$ guide in the future, update as you see fit, but remember C$ values rise very slowly.
Why doesn’t C$ add up like pet worth?
Example: X is worth 4 nons. Wouldn’t it be worth 4000C$ then?
Pet worth is different than C$ worth. It’s never advised to add it like that. C$ wasn’t totaled like that when The Rares List was active. It’s discontinuation doesn’t change C$ is different than demand/user pet worth.
Keep in mind the USD value as well. 1USD=19C$. 2000C$=105USD and so on.
It would be better if you’re wanting x amount of pet worth of C$ from your pet to trade it down and then sell those pets for C$.
Here are some BALLPARK ESTIMATES (please remember that some players price pets differently AND that not everyone will sell their pets for C$. Also remember that prices will change as time goes by.)
Why doesn’t C$ add up like pet worth?
Example: X is worth 4 nons. Wouldn’t it be worth 4000C$ then?
Pet worth is different than C$ worth. It’s never advised to add it like that. C$ wasn’t totaled like that when The Rares List was active. It’s discontinuation doesn’t change C$ is different than demand/user pet worth.
Keep in mind the USD value as well. 1USD=19C$. 2000C$=105USD and so on.
It would be better if you’re wanting x amount of pet worth of C$ from your pet to trade it down and then sell those pets for C$.
Here are some BALLPARK ESTIMATES (please remember that some players price pets differently AND that not everyone will sell their pets for C$. Also remember that prices will change as time goes by.)
The Main List
- Sunjewel 1850
Moonswirl 1665
UR B-Wolf 1625
Plains Zebra 1580
Mountain Zebra 1550
'08 UR Cat 1500
UR Banana 1450
Coontail Dog 1375
UR Aussie 1190
UR Lion 1125
Nons 1050
UR Flower pot 1025
Growing White July 1000
Nick Unicorn 970
--- Big Gap ---&
Spotted Tribal 900
Purple Toxic 850
CE Galaxy 810
Blue Toxic 800
Sorbet 775
Joker 765
UR Butterbun 760
Red Toxic 725
Green Toxic 680
Nonballoon 630
Line Tribal 590
Rainbow Mane 540
Pink Balloon 515
Light Speckled Rat 490
UR Purple Horse 465
Skeleton PPS 440
Rose PPS 420
Red-X PPS 390
The September List
- "Tier 13" Dark Leopard 325-340 C$
"Tier 12" Grey Dragon 310-325 C$
"Tier 11" Blue Rose 290-310 C$
"Tier 10" Purple Batdog 270-290 C$
"Tier 9" Lime Ice Rat 250-270 C$
"Tier 8" Cake Dogs 250-260 C$
"Tier 7" Flop-eared Pink September 240-260 C$
"Tier 6" Red Rose 220-250 C$
"Tier 5" Pink Striped September 200-220 C$
"Tier 4" Scarf PPS 180-200 C$
"Tier 3" Target Dog 160-180 C$
"Tier 2" Light Leopard 140-160 C$
"Tier 1" Red Dragon 120-140 C$
The Advent List
- "Tier 10" Sockdog 110C$
"Tier 9" Hyena 105C$
"Tier 8" Teal Butterbun 100C$
"Tier 7" Grey Border Collie 95C$
"Tier 6" Hyena Bun 90C$
"Tier 5" Peppermint Eared 85C$
"Tier 4" Grey Mini Husky 80C$
"Tier 3" Peppermint Bun75C$
"Tier 2" Candy Cane Horse 70C$
"Tier 1" Grown White Scarf dog 65C$
.
.
.
Please note:
we only list the first pet of each line! This because the list will get cluttered otherwise! All the pets in the same line/tier as the pet listed is that same C$ price!
we only list the first pet of each line! This because the list will get cluttered otherwise! All the pets in the same line/tier as the pet listed is that same C$ price!
.
.
.
Please note that C$ prices and pet prices are different. When trading offsite, it's best to use pet prices instead of C$ prices.
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Thank Yous
by ElementalInsanity » Sat Sep 22, 2018 5:46 pm
Originally written by lind17789
Rewritten by DaDwarf.
Thread/list updated with help from odd eye, Eagle’s Eye, TheLastRaven, lilrascal, lucky333123, and DaDwarf
Rewritten by DaDwarf.
Thread/list updated with help from odd eye, Eagle’s Eye, TheLastRaven, lilrascal, lucky333123, and DaDwarf
Special thanks to the contributors of this thread:
Amarok. - Burrito Bunny - .crossfire. - DaDwarf - Eagle’s Eye - ElementalInsanity - Elwynie - lilrascal - lucky33123 - LufikER - The Last Raven - ~ t r o u b l e ~ - VENUS -
And anyone posting on the thread! Couldn't do it without you!
Amarok. - Burrito Bunny - .crossfire. - DaDwarf - Eagle’s Eye - ElementalInsanity - Elwynie - lilrascal - lucky33123 - LufikER - The Last Raven - ~ t r o u b l e ~ - VENUS -
And anyone posting on the thread! Couldn't do it without you!
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Re: The 'How much is this pet worth in C$?' Thread!
by ElementalInsanity » Sun Sep 23, 2018 2:17 am
lucky333123 wrote:Current store pet worth should always be 20 C$ unless something drastically happens with C$ pricing. I think the rest of the store pet pricings look good.
I’m aware of that. ^^
However in the past it’s always been 15-20. With how the update is now, for it to still be worth a 2010 rare it’s now 20-25. Which again, I don’t see being a large problem.
What I do see being a potential problem is next year. I won’t have to up all the 2009-2010 by five like I did this year I don’t feel? However, 2011 will likely become 15-20. I don’t see a way around that? Unless anyone else has suggestions.
Not very active, it'll take time for me to reply to pms/trades.
10/08/22 <3
Complete Collection Achieved 9/11/18
If you are foed you may still send me a pm
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Re: The 'How much is this pet worth in C$?' Thread!
by ElementalInsanity » Mon Sep 24, 2018 3:44 am
Possible option for the Advent list?
Gap kept at 5C$:
Sockdog 110C$
Hyena 105C$
Teal Butterbun 100C$
Grey Border Collie 95C$
Hyena Bun 90C$
Peppermint Eared 85C$
Grey Mini Husky 80C$
Peppermint Bun 75C$
Candy Cane Horse 70C$
Grown White Scarf dog 65C$
I personally think we should leave the gap where it is after having done a mock up of different gaps. Welcome to hear other opinions however.
I also did this mock up by upping the first tier by ten. Would like to see what people think or if they feel that’s too much?
The next mock up for the September list would be as follows.
Dark Leopard 325-340 C$
Grey Dragon 310-325 C$
Blue Rose 290-310 C$
Purple Batdog 270-290 C$
Lime Ice Rat 250-270 C$
Cake Dogs 250-260 C$
Flop-eared Pink September 240-260 C$
Red Rose 230-240 C$
Pink Striped September 200-240 C$
Scarf PPS 180-200 C$
Target Dog 160-180 C$
Light Leopard 140-160 C$
Red Dragon 120-140 C$
However I’m going to admit I’m confused about the C$ gaps for Red Rose tier and Flop Pink septembered?
Floppy Pink September - (5 MA + 1 LA)
Red Rose - (5 MA)
Pink Striped September - (4 MA)
Scarf PPS - 19-24 09 rares | (3 MA)
So it seems from this that the gaps should have been more like
Flop-eared Pink September 240-260 C$
Red Rose 220-250 C$
Pink Striped September 200-220 C$
^^^This was the best suggestion I could come up with with some help of other active C$ users.
Gap kept at 5C$:
Sockdog 110C$
Hyena 105C$
Teal Butterbun 100C$
Grey Border Collie 95C$
Hyena Bun 90C$
Peppermint Eared 85C$
Grey Mini Husky 80C$
Peppermint Bun 75C$
Candy Cane Horse 70C$
Grown White Scarf dog 65C$
I personally think we should leave the gap where it is after having done a mock up of different gaps. Welcome to hear other opinions however.
I also did this mock up by upping the first tier by ten. Would like to see what people think or if they feel that’s too much?
The next mock up for the September list would be as follows.
Dark Leopard 325-340 C$
Grey Dragon 310-325 C$
Blue Rose 290-310 C$
Purple Batdog 270-290 C$
Lime Ice Rat 250-270 C$
Cake Dogs 250-260 C$
Flop-eared Pink September 240-260 C$
Red Rose 230-240 C$
Pink Striped September 200-240 C$
Scarf PPS 180-200 C$
Target Dog 160-180 C$
Light Leopard 140-160 C$
Red Dragon 120-140 C$
However I’m going to admit I’m confused about the C$ gaps for Red Rose tier and Flop Pink septembered?
Floppy Pink September - (5 MA + 1 LA)
Red Rose - (5 MA)
Pink Striped September - (4 MA)
Scarf PPS - 19-24 09 rares | (3 MA)
So it seems from this that the gaps should have been more like
Flop-eared Pink September 240-260 C$
Red Rose 220-250 C$
Pink Striped September 200-220 C$
^^^This was the best suggestion I could come up with with some help of other active C$ users.
Not very active, it'll take time for me to reply to pms/trades.
10/08/22 <3
Complete Collection Achieved 9/11/18
If you are foed you may still send me a pm
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ElementalInsanity - Posts: 19101
- Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2008 11:50 am
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