Thoughts on animal mills?

[classyyorkie]

What are your personal thoughts on animal mills that supply pet stores with animals (whether they be puppies, rodents or birds, it doesn't really matter)? I feel like the consensus in general is that they're bad if the animals happen to be puppies, but totally alright if they happen to be rodents and other small pets which.. I've never really understood? Personally, I think animal mills are okay. Not great, not particularly ethical, but neither is mainstream meat production and most people still support that with their dollar for no other reason than they want to (which is a-okay in my book).

I plan to get a parti Yorkshire terrier and, while probably not a puppy mill, the breeder I've chosen is somewhat sketchy. I feel as though less "reputable" operations fill a necessary niche; some people want a rabbit or a kitten, and they don't want to be questioned, interrogated or otherwise have to jump through any hoops in order to get one. They possibly want a teacup variety, a non-standard color and so on as well which a hobby/show/reputable breeder likely will not have.

Convenience prevails and imo if someone has the money to deal with potential health problems (I mean, even certain breeds from supposedly good breeders have terrible health, like bulldogs), I think that's okay.

[Imagine Dragonfruits]

Just a heads up, I wouldn't buy a Yorkie from someone who seems sketchy to you. Follow your guts. My mom bought a Yorkie from a pet store, that no longer exists, and the dog ended up being very sick and almost died.

All in all, I don't really trust MOST animal mills because you never truly know who you're buying from, the condition of the animals, the living conditions, if they have a legitimate permit (if required), etc. Course, I've bought many pets from pet stores, and who knows where they came from?

[Sunfang]

I fully support outlawing the vast majority animal mills for any animal if not setting tight restrictions.

I get tired of seeking ill rats, mice, ferrets and hamsters at pet stores. I'm sick of abandoned pet-store rats I have to rescue because they're so ill from the shoddy mill they came from that people regret buying them or just dump them back at the store to die. I just spent over $200 on one pet rat that came from one of the East's largest rodent supply mill. He's not even the first in my care like that. Animal mills create unneeded stress on shelters and rescues, because people buy these pets and then find out just how sick they are and sometimes can't afford to fix all the mill's mistakes.

It shouldn't even be a matter if "they're feeders"; who would EVER feed such sick rats and mice to their snakes? I wouldn't. I'd either breed my own feeders or buy from locals. Mill animals as I've always found have mental issues and health issues. And people should be sick of buying sick animals too. I hear nothing but bad things from people who buy puppies from stores that are supplied by some of the biggest puppy mills, they're sick, they have parasites, kennel cough and hot spots. Buy a dog from a good breeder, promote proper breeding and ethical breeders.

Animals aren't anyone's right to have, they're a privilege. It's not like the meat industry. While I support stricter welfare laws for livestock, in reality it's to keep costs down so people can afford meat based proteins in their diet. Animal mills don't serve this purpose. Food is a human right. Owning a pet is not. I'm a vegan, so I don't even believe in eating meat, but I'm not so shut out to reality, meat is one of the biggest food industries on Earth.

The only "mill" type facilities I support are local feeder/reptile breeders that are mills by definition. They use the same racks. But they're reptiles and rodents are cared for. I know my local one has the best rats ever, happy mass bred rats with great genetics, great personalities, and are of great health for both food and pets. The same with their reptiles. Buy from a reputable breeder. Not a mill, not a BYB. But someone who actually cares for the animals they create.

[BlingBling]

I plan to get a parti Yorkshire terrier and, while probably not a puppy mill, the breeder I've chosen is somewhat sketchy.

If you want a Biewer I can probably look up decent enough breeders for you, or at least ones who health test. If you settle for second rate in a dog you get what you pay for, which is usually steep vet bills

I think in the small animal department that they are a necessary evil for most folks though I wish it wasn't that way. Finding a local cavy or hamster breeder can be quite difficult let alone something like a gerbil that to my knowledge doesn't have a fancy. Of course I'd prefer 100% going to a responsible breeder but can I fault someone for getting a store bought if they couldn't find one through a rescue or fancier? Not really.
Dogs and cats are a whole other can of worms though imo. For cats there are of course a ton of moggies in shelters and even if you wanted a specific purebred the stores are 99% gonna lie about that. Cats don't have that much variance in temperament between breeds anyway, more just vocalness. With dogs there are responsible breeders for just about anything you'd want and if there isn't you shouldn't be supporting the breed/cross anyway. Said responsible breeders are about everywhere and will often ship to you (my breeder will be driving my puppy up a state to deliver him to me). Of course there's also rescues if you're not looking for anything super specific like show/sport prospects or service work so I 100% don't see any reason for someone to go to a BYB/get a store dog except out of sheer laziness. And this isn't even talking about the huge multitude of ethical issues that I'm sure folks have already posted on

[classyyorkie]

An animal is just as much a right as anything else provided you can afford said animal, don't abuse it and haven't abused any in the past and so on. As it stands right now, nobody can really stop anyone from legally buying an animal from anywhere and I think it should stay that way. Animals are property in my opinion and if they can be eaten, made into clothing .etc., then they can be purchased whenever and wherever one wants them. Now, without going too wayward and offtopic, I am a veggie for health (not ethical) reasons and it is my opinion that the majority (yes, there are exceptions) of people do not need or even benefit from meat, especially factory produced meat. So eating meat is just as much about luxury, pleasure and convenience as is buying an animal from a pet store.

I do think there should be higher standards of care for all animals, but if a hen can live in a cage little bigger than a piece of paper, why shouldn't a dog? Because we like dogs more? Because we only hear about the horror stories, even though there are millions of perfectly healthy pets being produced by mills? I'm not saying reality is perfectly good and peachy or that the environment of a mill is optimal or even that ALL mill animals are healthy, but as I said before, I think they fill a necessary niche.

Yes, I'm lazy.
I don't really want to go on a huge, big search just to find a dog. Once I find a dog, I don't want to be interviewed as though I am adopting a child and I don't want to in turn ask a bunch of questions about things I don't care about, or be turned away because I don't fit their standards. I do understand dogs are a commitment, but I'm just telling the truth here as to my reasoning. I have enough money to deal with most health problems as well and I'm also confident enough that the breeder I've chosen has healthy puppies, though yes, I called them sketchy because to a lot of you, they would be.

[feylost]

I hate animal mills. Support rescues and ethical breeders. Mills mass breed for money, instead of health and quality. The rats I've gotten from pet stores (from mills) have all been sick, one of which died from an extreme respiratory illness (She was barely 6 or so weeks old.) She did not deserve to be only marked as a number in a batch. I've gotten rats with mites, illness and more.

I highly suggest you go to a rescue (If you want a yorkie, you can go to a yorkie-specific rescue) or a good, ethical breeder

Edit: You may be getting a healthy puppy, but what about when it's older? Illness can strike at any age. Maybe the dog you get won't get sick, maybe It'll have a long, healthy life but that does not mean thousands upon thousands of mill animals are subject to horrible care and abuse. And that's what you'd be supporting.

[BlingBling]

Edit: You may be getting a healthy puppy, but what about when it's older? Illness can strike at any age.

I want to say that liver shunts are very common with biewers (especially imports), as is progressive retinal atrophy and luxating patellas and there may be even more common issues but I never bothered to research yorkies. You can do whatever you want but I don't see why you'd want to cut corners on health/longevity just to avoid talking to the breeders. Although I haven't found any bybs of my breed in the country I'll use them as an example: I'd much rather go through screening and end up on a waitlist for a more expensive puppy that has a health guarantee than much cheaper instant purchase and end up with a progressive neurological disorder that ends in early euth (and is present in approx 10% of the breed). Or take Dobermans where about 45% of the population drops dead by the age of 8 to Dilated Cardiomyopathy (which is also present in the yorkie breed to my knowledge). It's the support of those irresponsible breeders that cause such diseases to run rampant

[Sunfang]

Just because someone's too lazy to go to a shelter, rescue, breeder, use hoobly, or do a google search for breeder's whom have websites in your area or even easier, a facebook group search for breeders in your state - doesn't mean rodents, reptiles, cats, dogs or even fish should be mass bred and kept in deplorable conditions. And I hate the notion that rodents are less creatures and are OK to mistreat. I have 15 rats, many rescues, who are much more behaved and affectionate than most dogs I've come across. Rats are just as intelligent as dogs. They are exotics, they require special care compared to a dog or cat, and mass breeding them in mills is not different from dogs. Dogs and cats have a horrible population problem, why grant mills passes to create population and mass health issues for exotics as well? There are no shortages of exotics for adoption. Bunnies, chinchillas, rats, piggies I see them all the time on Petfinder and on Facebook emergency rehoming groups like Dookerz on the Move.

Mills that supply the big corporate pet shops aren't good for any species when it comes to mental and physical health. Mill rats are more prone to URIs, aggression, mites, and cancer. Miss ferrets are much much more likely to develop adrenal disease or insulinoma or various other cancers that are usually the death of ferrets. And none of this is from pet store mistreatment, but bad genetics on the part of the mill.

The resources to find adoptable pets or pets from breeders are out there, just because you want convince doesn't mean thousands of animals should be tortured just so you can go in a pet store and have the luxury of buying a pet. I used to live in a village of 200 people. And still, I found gerbil and degu and rat and savannah and ridgeback breeders within a max distance of 50 miles. But this is anecdotal.

We have animal welfare regulations for a reason, and many of the big mills violate them and get strikes from the USDA. You can look for their names, owners, and whom they supply right now and check infractions found by the USDA - it's all there on the internet for you to view. Animals aren't just objects you can abuse, they are protected on federal, state and local levels from cruelty and neglect in the United States. Being OK with mills violating USDA and federal welfare regulations all for convenience is pretty silly. You can buy animals without funding literal criminals. The options are out there.

[fluffycat6]

As long as the animals are being treated well, they aren’t always a bad thing. I’m talking more in the case of fish, though. A lot of marine fish are wild caught because they can’t be bred in captivity yet, and it can take a real toll on their wild populations. Even the ones that can be captive bred aren’t always widely available because they aren’t being bred on a large enough scale. With “mill” like facilities such as ORA and Biota, these fish can be more readily available, and the more large scale breeders producing them the more the price can go down, encouraging people to buy CB fish instead of WC ones, taking pressure off wild populations.

It’s when they stop caring about the health and well-being of their animals that they become bad, IMO. I’m not sure about other exotics, but ferrets have awful heath. So many of them get adrenal disease and are unhealthy because of mills like Marshall’s ferrets, that don’t care about their health. Most ferrets these days live 5-7 years, compared to the polecats that they’re descended from, that can live up to 14 years in captivity.

With cats and dogs, Mills are absolutely not nessisary. Even if the mill is treats their animals well there’s no reason they should be mass producing puppies and kittens when there are literally millions of them dying in shelters, and plenty of reputable breeders producing purebreds already.

But honestly, pets are a luxury. Even if they are considered property, they are still a living, breathing animal, that you in no way need to own (excusing service animals). I get what you mean about not wanting to be interrogated, but you have to remember that reputable breeders interview potential buyers because they care where that animal ends up. If someone doesn’t care where their animals end up after they sell them, they probably don’t care if their animals are healthy or well cared for either. And is that really something you’d want to support?

[BudgieLover5000]

Hmm... I mostly agree with @fluffycat6 here. I don't think mills are that bad as long as they're animals are treated properly. Like @SunFang, if mills had tighter restrictions, they could be wonderful options! In fact, places like Petsmart and Petco, although mills, have healthy animals from what I've heard from my friends and what I've seen myself. Pristine cages, active animals, clean tanks... I still think its sorcery how clean their habitats were.

Disclaimer: I'm definitely not saying all Petsmart's and Petco's are amazing. Mills have a bad connotation due to media, but ours seemed to truly care about their animals, assisted in helping me choose the proper supplies, and etc. It's a case by case situation. I got my budgies from Petsmart and they were very healthy, and still are to this day. It seems others on this thread have had bad experiences with them but once again.. not all of them are horrible.

Dogs and cats on the other hand...
There are better choices, especially with how versatile your options are! Unlike exotics, dogs and cats have shelters, breeders, and rescues dedicated to them that are more widely available. In term of their mills, they are some of the worst quality since they're more in demand. Once again, they're not all bad. As I said before, if the animals are happy and healthy then I've got no qualms (people's definitions of "healthy" differ when it comes to these animals however).

To be honest, I'd have to see the breeder OP is talking about, but we shouldn't jump to conclusions with assuming it mistreats it's dogs and such. People have different standards for what they consider sketchy.

I also agree with OP in this fact: "they don't want to be questioned, interrogated or otherwise have to jump through any hoops in order to get one". Shelters are definitely guilty of this... lol. I know they want to give their dogs the best homes, but they're drawing people away with their complicated adoption processes aaaaand that's exactly why people are opting for mills.

I don't care much for breeders, and as OP said, most are okay with breeding characteristics that are not healthy and thats... okay apparently. (Ex: Brachys, Dalmatian bladder stones, German Shepherds backs). Not here to argue about breeders though. I opt for Craigslist most of the time, if something like that is an option for you OP.