Imzadi83 wrote:Naeco wrote:Harlow. wrote:wow, Seems like no opinion can be stated without a fight. I've tried positive training, Why i am reaching out to a dog trainer.
I'm not some idiot, And neither is anybody else here. We have the right to state out opinions without being bashed, And We are allowed to believe something that you might think is wrong, doesn't mean you need to tell us that we are wrong and force your believes on us. we all need to chill outtttt.
I would have to agree with you. Opinions are just that, opinions. I personally agree with both balanced and positive training. My philosophy is that positive works for many things for many dogs; however, are you just gonna sit there while your dog jumps on the counter? That is where balanced comes into play. Now, don't get me wrong, I have used both methods for a long time. In your case, I think balanced may be the way to go. It is very difficult to fix aggression with positive but it is much clearer when fixed with balanced.
Don't get me wrong, dominance is outdated, but nearly all of the studies have been shown to compare dogs to children. And doesn't it sometimes takes a sharp no or the like to fix a child's behavior?
Except saying that positive based training won't work for certain things is factually untrue. Positive reinforcement can work to stop counter surfing (or for anything else). It takes more time and may not be as satisfying to some as simply pressing a button and shocking the dog, but it does work. And no, it doesn't involve sitting there while your dog jumps on the counter. You don't want to use it, fine, I can't stop you, but saying it can't work is incorrect.
Also using balanced training (the +P) on aggression is extremely dangerous. It can increase aggression and make it more unpredictable, many people have been bitten and dogs have been euthanized after +P methods have been used in an attempt to "fix" aggression. I'm not stating this to be mean or to bash your training choices. I'm saying it because you can't cure fear (which most aggression comes from in dogs) with punishment and attempting to do so can lead to disastrous results. Someone considering this methodology should be warned of the potential side effects. Any responsible trainer should warn them as well.
And, to be clear, I have no problem using the word "No" as an interrupter, but there is a big difference between saying "No." and shocking the dog. Since you brought up children, shock collars are illegal to use on children, because they have the potential to be physiologically and psychologically damaging. The same reasons why I don't believe they should be used on dogs.
And again, positive reinforcement training is not about shoving treats down your dog's throat when they choose to listen. If one truly wants to do balanced training then they should learn the truth about the positive reinforcement side and how to do it correctly. It is about using positive reinforcement (you don't and shouldn't only use treats) to teach the dog what you want them to do and that is more rewarding to do so. Treats should be faded out, and life rewards should be put on a variable reinforcement schedule.
I never said it wouldn't work for certain things; any dog can learn anything off of it. However, some dogs don't get the concept unless there is a clear "no". And, sometimes, "no" isn't enough. That is where a correction comes into play. Many people who are bashing the use of corrections, and, no, I am not pointing you out as I forgot which type of dogs you own, have breeds that are easy or easier to train. I have had a purebred Labrador: she was easy peasy to train positive wise. Sheaba, a Labrador mix, same deal. However, Skai is something else due to her Husky blood. Not everyone has an easy breed and/or dog.
I use positive training on all tricks I teach. I very rarely use any punishment. When I do, it is for... actually, I cannot think of a time I used any form of punishment, besides taking something away (sorry if I am mixing up the quadrants), for trick training. However, for counter surfing, it was not that way for Skai. A swift "no" and pulling her off the counter worked wonders. If she was super pushy, a mild spank got her attention. And no, it was not enough to hurt her by any means, when I do it to myself it doesn't even sting a bit. It was just enough to get her attention. This is the exact same as a shock collar.
Shock collars do not actually shock the dog unless at a very high number. Most dogs do not need the number to be above ten while the tool typically goes to 100. The shock collars stimulate the muscles in a way that is uncomfortable. Not painful unless abused. Same goes for harnesses, collars, leashes, anything really. Anything can be an abuse tool. Harness, especially the ones with the front pull, are intended to cause discomfort to correct a dog's behavior, to cause a better heel. Collars, long-lines, leashes, prongs, choke chains, etc all are the same way. To cause discomfort to correct.
Shock collars, and other tools, are not bad, it is the handler.
P.S. I have learned, researched, and even used positive reinforcement. Sorry, it doesn't work on my dog for everything. It may for yours, but keep in mind every dog is different.
