[urgent] this site really is actually dying

[azemyc]

I think that a lot of productive discussion is taking place here! Thank you for bringing these issues up and for continuing to be respectful to each other throughout this

I keep coming to a crossroads because a lot of suggestions being made tend to unintentionally combat each other. For example, two things that I’ve seen come up multiple times are 1) C$ sinks, and 2) daily incentives to log in, like C$ rewards. Implementing the second idea would make the first issue even worse. The problem with a lot of large suggestions like this is that they can be game-breaking, and there’s no way to undo them once they are added.

I think the main reason why we're seeing opposing ideas, especially with the c$ sink and c$ rewards, is that they're being suggested for two different reasons - one for the economy and one for boosting activity. And it will be hard to balance those out or implement them, you're right, especially in ways that won't break an already fragile system tottering on the edge. It might be worthwhile to do polls or some form of community engagement to see where the player base at large sits on these Ideas, and maybe run some back end studies on c$ numbers, activity levels, etc, to see if there's even a feasible idea.

I also don’t think that changing CS drastically is a good idea. CS has always been a casual game at its core. A complete collection may not be considered casual but CS is a game where you can log in on the 1st, adopt all the pets, and come back whenever you feel like. If I leave for a week I can come back and I didn’t miss out on anything. Even with something like the Advent Calendar, I only have to visit for a few minutes. It’s always been quite fundamentally simple and I personally don’t want that to change.

I do have to agree with the nature of this, but slightly disagree to say that the site needs something new to draw players back, or draw new players in. Personally, I feel that the quest idea that's been suggested a few times might be too far out of CS's 'scope' or 'feel' to work well (coming back to the feel of a casual game that you've mentioned), but some ideas about other small re-release events, or community engagement events like the cake creation contest from years ago would be neat. Or, at least, a way to start breathing something new into the site.

Another issue is that many suggestions have already been denied by Tess, so all we can do as staff is parrot this information to you. I don’t think that denied suggestions should necessarily be set in stone, but regular staff can’t offer anything more since we do not have the power to do so. I know that my title has admin in the name but I have zero control over what is implemented; that falls solely on Tess and Nick. However a lot of the permanently denied suggestions, like re-releasing store pets, have many good reasons on why they will never be considered.

I feel that many of us understand that a majority of staff can't do anything about the issue with the absurd rarity of some of the pets (eg, the store pets), but having some form of discussion go up towards Tess and Nick instead of always back down saying 'it was decided x years ago that it would never happen' might be beneficial. These are conversations that the site needs to have. While us players don't have access to any raw data like pet numbers, we do see what's actively being traded or offered, and seeing that there's only a limited handful of these store pets even tentatively on the market is demoralizing. CS, at its core game play loop, is a pet collection game. And now there are absolutely pets that are impossible to get between hoarding, rarity inflation, and sheer lack of the things.

The one major reason I've seen for pets like store pets never being released is that it'll upset players who either paid for them, or have traded in some form for them. In an argument to that, there are very few active players left from the time where these incredibly rare store pets were purchasable, and the value of pets for trading is never set in stone or guaranteed - and shouldn't be. CS's entire economy is based around things gradually getting rarer, yes, simply due to releases and that most adopts are only available for a month (or two, if you're the modern store pets), but every other pet is released again through the 18th box, keeping them in circulation on hopefully active accounts. There absolutely needs to be something done with older store pets. Their value is unsustainable in the long run, and I think that this discussion needs to be opened up again.

It seems like a lot of issues are stemming from trading and I think the store price adjustments and monthly item packs have helped a bit. A good C$ sink will not be visible overnight and will take time to truly see the effects of. However I do agree that there is a glaring issue with the trading economy and I don’t think these issues could have ever been foreseen.

Agreed. Absolutely agreed. And when a core aspect of your game play is failing, the site starts failing. We're seeing it now, and we've been seeing the slow encroachment of it over the last three or so years with dipping player numbers, and lack of returnees on the 18th.

ETA (this may be a bit more concise but I want to get these final thoughts out as well) I do think that the Internet is changing and forums are losing popularity to things like Discord. Forums existed long before instant messaging and even social media. I will always enjoy forums because I enjoy the slow-paced discussion but I can understand why mediums like Discord are taking over.

Definitely agreed. Discord can definitely, and does, take away from Forum activity. I think it's possible to bring people back to the forums a little with community events like pin sales or something like the cake contest.

[Lanayru]

Seconding that I'd love more competition style events - I participated in the OG cake comp and even though I didn't win anything it was an absolute blast! It doesn't have to be cake ofc, something like general crafts could also be super cute :-] I know IRL prizes are no longer an option due to the difficulty in delivering them globally but tbh I'd love virtual prizes too! In the cake comp all participants got the DIY cake set while the winner(s?) got a custom, that'd still be a good motivator to me c:

[Purgatory K9]

-snip-

Another issue is that many suggestions have already been denied by Tess, so all we can do as staff is parrot this information to you. I don’t think that denied suggestions should necessarily be set in stone, but regular staff can’t offer anything more since we do not have the power to do so. I know that my title has admin in the name but I have zero control over what is implemented; that falls solely on Tess and Nick. However a lot of the permanently denied suggestions, like re-releasing store pets, have many good reasons on why they will never be considered.

I feel that many of us understand that a majority of staff can't do anything about the issue with the absurd rarity of some of the pets (eg, the store pets), but having some form of discussion go up towards Tess and Nick instead of always back down saying 'it was decided x years ago that it would never happen' might be beneficial. These are conversations that the site needs to have. While us players don't have access to any raw data like pet numbers, we do see what's actively being traded or offered, and seeing that there's only a limited handful of these store pets even tentatively on the market is demoralizing. CS, at its core game play loop, is a pet collection game. And now there are absolutely pets that are impossible to get between hoarding, rarity inflation, and sheer lack of the things.

The one major reason I've seen for pets like store pets never being released is that it'll upset players who either paid for them, or have traded in some form for them. In an argument to that, there are very few active players left from the time where these incredibly rare store pets were purchasable, and the value of pets for trading is never set in stone or guaranteed - and shouldn't be. CS's entire economy is based around things gradually getting rarer, yes, simply due to releases and that most adopts are only available for a month (or two, if you're the modern store pets), but every other pet is released again through the 18th box, keeping them in circulation on hopefully active accounts. There absolutely needs to be something done with older store pets. Their value is unsustainable in the long run, and I think that this discussion needs to be opened up again.

-snip-

Note: mostly snipping to make my post shorter so it isn't a super long post on the thread lol. Anything I snipped, I mostly-fully agree with what you had said. I just wanted to highlight this specific piece that you commented on.

...having some form of discussion go up towards Tess and Nick instead of always back down saying 'it was decided x years ago that it would never happen' might be beneficial.



This, 100% this; if this hasn't happened, I feel like it could be revisited with Tess and Nick because it's been many, many years since this has been set in place. ChickenSmoothie as a whole has changed a ton since things like that were set in place. If perhaps, Tess and Nick still say the same, I feel like maybe a compromise of some sort could really benefit the site.



...store pets never being released is that it'll upset players who either paid for them, or have traded in some form for them. In an argument to that, there are very few active players left from the time...



While I do agree that a lot of the players who were active during that time don't seem to be active or as active anymore...what about the players that have traded for said store pets? I mean, look at the skelebun and how much it's going for; the successful trades thread has them sitting at 12-15 nons, and in case you don't know what that means: 1 non alone is 100-150 '09 rares.

As someone who actively trades, I'd feel bad for the people who have traded that much for it to just end up being in the rerelease pile.

Although, I think that those pets are way too hard to obtain and there's got to be a way to lower the inflation; I'm just not sure how without rereleasing store pets. My only other idea is maybe hosting contests or raffles every six months or so for one of these said older store pets as a prize; I think that would really benefit the player base.

If anyone has any other ideas that would be absolutely amazing.

[barbwirebrat]

i think the first step is to definitely do a few polls to gauge the community’s opinions. nothing can even start to be done until we know where the majority of the player base stands.

[yharnam boy]

there definitely MUST be something done about older store pets... there are increasingly more people, but the amount of these pets stays absolutely the same (with less and less being actually in circulation). i have some through trades but honestly i don't care if their value suddenly drops. the longer you wait with implementing an option for getting new ones it will only get worse and worse with their value and therefore more and more frustrating for the people who traded for them. just plainly re-releasing would probably not be a good idea overall, but adding some more to the pool in some way must be an option.

[Pyca]

i think the first step is to definitely do a few polls to gauge the community’s opinions. nothing can even start to be done until we know where the majority of the player base stands.

I would LOVE an official poll created by the staff that's able to be voted on by the community.

[Daxx]

I do not think re-release stores will ever be a good idea. For the same reasons it's been denied for so long quite honestly. If you re-release them, their values will plumet overnight. And as someone who has many stores, and who knows many people with old stores, I think alot of people would be done. Alot of people are barely holding on to the site as-is. It's a challenge to get store pets, but that's what makes it fun and special. You can't just get them easily, it's not a monthly adopt. The whole premise of the stores has ALWAYS been that they will never, ever, be re-released. Ever. That's the entire point. They've always made that promise clear. And the fact that people have spent countless amounts of real money to work toward getting them at their current value? It would be ridiculous to re-release them. I get people don't wanna have to work for them, and that people want it to be easy, but that's not fair. It's not fair to the people who originally bought them under the promise it will never be released again. It's not fair to people who have traded countless good pets, mass amounts of pets, for these pets at their current value. Just take the skelebun for a perfect example. As stated above, it goes for 10-12 Nons. That's 20kC$ at the minimum, that's 1000-2000 09 rares, that's basically someone's life savings, all in one pet. If you could buy it in the C$ store tomorrow? That pet would now be completely worthless. Absolutely worth no more than a 2011 rare. And that's insane that people think we should start with that. This site is in need of help, I'll agree 100%. But you're talking about ruining people's collections, completely tanking value for people that have been working to achieve these pets for years now. I mean, if I woke up tomorrow and they re-released the past stores? I'd quit on the spot. I'd be done, because of the 15+nons I have on my account? Half are stores. And that means half my CS "value" is now gone. That's crushing to people, and it's scary even thinking it's a possibility. I've talked to a few people about this specifically and was told the same thing I say, if it happens, I'll quit. Because once you've spent time and money aquiring something, it hurts to watch other people blindly ruin your work. I'm not saying people are wrong, that something needs to be done. But a re-release is not the way to go in mine, and alot of others opinions.

Personally, I think most ALL of this can be fixed by the staff, and mods, sitting down, learning as much as they can, and posting an OFFICIAL worth post. For every pet, that has been, and ever could be on a list. I think it is basically required at this point. And if people say it's up to users? We have multiple user made lists, and while alot of people follow them, others still screw value far far beyond the list, and then it messes the list up.i think if we had an official value list, made and monitored by staff, it would fix things pretty well. Yeah, people would be mad, and hurt. But things would even out, demand could be Factored in before posting, the community could chime in with their thoughts on value and demand and trade experiences. I think it would bring the community together, it would show that the mods are still part of the community, and it would honestly set a good example of how to trade and what you can expect out of a trade. It's be alot easier for the sole fact that most users already want it. Most users want to be able to say "it's staff made, it's definitely correct, this is what I will refer to". The skelebun is another great example here. If the mods produced a list, and the put the skelebun on it. They could say the Value is truly 6 nons. How many people would be upset? Alot. How many people would agree 6 nons is reasonable? Alot more. If the mods can set the value, all the users need to do is follow it. I feel like that's a much better option than re-releasing store pets.

[barbwirebrat]

Just take the skelebun for a perfect example. As stated above, it goes for 10-12 Nons. That's 20kC$ at the minimum, that's 1000-2000 09 rares, that's basically someone's life savings, all in one pet.

firstly i just want to mention that i’m absolutely not trying to be rude or anything at all!! i’m just super bad at wording things T_T

anywho, this in itself is why i believe store pets should be rereleased in one way or another. someone’s entire life savings for a pixel bunny is just ridiculous and quite frankly i think it’s unfair to assume that anyone could afford that for their collection.

i honestly feel it’s a little silly that some people take the game so seriously to the point that they think this inflation is okay for the sake of keeping their value. someone pointed out that something sold on flight rising for $9k usd and nobody batted an eye, but that’s also just ridiculous. i don’t even want the store pets that badly— because again, they’re just little pixel pets and im not working for a 100% collection— but for people to say that they would quit if store pets were rereleased just seems a tad dramatic. again, im so sorry if this is coming off as blunt or unkind, i genuinely suck at wording things thru text!

i think that if store pets aren’t rereleased, they absolutely need to do something to decrease their worth whether it be remake the list entirely or something else.

i also wanna add that it’s really not that big of a loss towards the people that initially purchased them with real money while they were in the store. for example, the raven dog was worth 25 c$ while it was in the store, so while the argument that people are losing out on the real money they spent is reasonable, it would only be a tiny fraction.

[Loelya]

anywho, this in itself is why i believe store pets should be rereleased in one way or another. someone’s entire life savings for a pixel bunny is just ridiculous and quite frankly i think it’s unfair to assume that anyone could afford that for their collection.

I want to say that I completely understand where you're coming from, like the logic here isn't unreasonable at all, and I personally have no significant attachment to the value of store pets, but I still disagree that they should be re-released. No one actually does assume that people can afford the old retired store pets. :0 it's mentioned time and time again that they are a bonus for supporting the site, and they don't count towards an official complete collection. becoming rare and unattainable over time was the incentive for buying most of them to begin with, and it was promised that they would not be re-released. it just wouldn't be okay to rescind that promise even though the value rose even more than maybe was originally expected.

i think that if store pets aren’t rereleased, they absolutely need to do something to decrease their worth whether it be remake the list entirely or something else.

All "lists" or other guides are user-made, not staff-made! ^^ The userbase organizes guides and value estimates to help each other know how to best trade according to things like rarity and demand. CS staff were never involved in things like creation of "the rares list."

[barbwirebrat]

anywho, this in itself is why i believe store pets should be rereleased in one way or another. someone’s entire life savings for a pixel bunny is just ridiculous and quite frankly i think it’s unfair to assume that anyone could afford that for their collection.

I want to say that I completely understand where you're coming from, like the logic here isn't unreasonable at all, and I personally have no significant attachment to the value of store pets, but I still disagree that they should be re-released. No one actually does assume that people can afford the old retired store pets. :0 it's mentioned time and time again that they are a bonus for supporting the site, and they don't count towards an official complete collection. becoming rare and unattainable over time was the incentive for buying most of them to begin with, and it was promised that they would not be re-released. it just wouldn't be okay to rescind that promise even though the value rose even more than maybe was originally expected.

i think that if store pets aren’t rereleased, they absolutely need to do something to decrease their worth whether it be remake the list entirely or something else.

All "lists" or other guides are user-made, not staff-made! ^^ The userbase organizes guides and value estimates to help each other know how to best trade according to things like rarity and demand. CS staff were never involved in things like creation of "the rares list."

thank you for being so kind!! again im super sorry if i came off as rude, it wasn’t my intentions at all! i completely understand where you’re coming from and can definitely see the argument from both sides, i just wanted to share my perspective :)

also i know the rares list isnt made by staff, i just think that maybe the staff should remake it so there’s an official value for everything! i think it would drastically help out with some of the inflation.