Petition: Right to Dictate Your Own Species

[Autumn Rain]

Again, that is a physical necessity and not a mental difference. If we are making comparisons that are unsuited for this debate, I will as well.

"If you adopt these pets, you must agree that they must:
1.) Never be anything but straight.
2.) Never enjoy music.
3.) Never allow Rudolph to play in the reindeer games.
4.) Always eat with their pinky out.
5.) Always show dat swag.

There can never be any kind of diversity in these traits."

(I hope this is interpreted as humor, as it was meant to be.)

[foreign-potato]

Please stop likening vegetarians to queer people.

Being a vegetarian is a choice, being queer is not. Wanting your character to eat the same thing as you is very different than wanting your character to represent you better with their sexuality.

Popped on again and skimmed a little, this though is a HUGE idea that needs to come more light
Thanks kuroo for saying it

also,

I feel like the way this topic is panning out is basically proving/reenforcing why this rule is in existence. This is exactly what I was afraid would happen.

This is all too true, proof is in the pudding and I don't even know how it was thought that this petition thing was going to play out in any way but bad?

[muteani]

I agree with Kyar; I've been watching this thread since it was first posted, and the situation has become heated on both sides

if an issue like this creates this much debate simply in theory, it obviously would not work in practice
there will always be those who argue artistic integrity in the creation of species, and others who argue that it is offensive to limit someone's choice to make their character truly theirs through personality

this rule would provide almost no benefit to any users beyond the artists feeling their adopts fit fully to their beliefs; beliefs that many find extremely offensive
the cons far outweigh the benefits of this petition because there are no tangible benefits beyond an adoptable species' owner knowing that a certain sexuality isn't being expressed in their adopts {{ which isn't even truly a benefit when you take into account that it hurts others more than it helps them }};

the cons are much more plentiful and tangible:


• more disputes like this over the rule itself being unfair and enabling prejudice
  
• more time wasted by the moderators residing over these disputes
  
• moderators would have to deal with repossessing characters and the obvious problems that arises with that
• more moderators would be needed just to deal with the amount of increased work
  
  • they would have to check every character/roleplay just to enforce this rule
  • how do you enforce it if it's broken? is it fair to take away their character?
  • just because people start out with a straight character, doesn't mean that character will remain straight
  • what if they promise to make their character straight, and then don't
  • what about character resales? what if the new owner is not made aware of the rules
• users are, and will always find this offensive because you are actively denying certain groups the able to be represented and express themselves; it isn't lgbt+ peoples' faults they want to express themselves, but it is the rule makers' faults for denying that ability
• this only enables the culture that teaches children from an early age that "being straight is the default; being lgbt+ is bad"; CS is a children's site, they should not be supporting rules that enable a culture toxic to children and teens, and even many adults

there are so many more negatives than positives with this, that there shouldn't really have to be discussion
if you don't want lgbt+ people to adopt or even heterosexual/lgbt+ people to make queer adopts, you shouldn't be making adopts on a site like CS because that is not the message it embraces
it goes both ways; you cannot blame the victims of something and claim innocence for yourself. that is a common oppression and guilt throwing tactic used during segregation and current human rights movements dealing with lgbt+ rights, women's rights, disability rights, etc.

also, small tangent, heterophobia is not a thing.
you can be rude to straight people, mean to straight people, but straight people are not oppressed in society and have not had any basic human rights denied from them

[Pachoopi]

As an avid adopter, artist, and species owner, I do not support the petition's cause.

The current rule is just and is in place to allow freedom in owners of adopted characters to feel safe and included. It is there to give owners the freedom to express themselves in ways they may not be safe in doing so in the real world.

The species creator can dictate anything about the species' lifestyle, quirks, traits, et cetera, although I feel it should remain a rule that character owners can choose their own identities for their adopted characters. The species owner should not be able to tell what sexualities are and aren't allowed.

In a more personal perspective, I feel it's really nice to have this sort of freedom to have our characters identify with different identities. Individually, it makes me feel more welcome and as a whole it gives the community a more inclusive feel. Owners can create characters and express themselves in ways they may not feel safe to in real life.

[monty]

Guys Bernouli put it best;

Puffsnouts, also, can never be gay, bi, or lesbian. Males always like females, and females always like males. Please respect this rule.

This isn't really a rule that's enforceable for us. We can't chase someone down if they chose to make their puffsnout gay/bi/lesbian without permission... If you want to adopt out a species with these specific rules you are probably better off moving them over to DA to be sold there.

XxXxXxX

CS cannot control or support this rule, the mods cannot tell someone they can't have a lgbt+ character and neither can other users.

That is all that needs to be said. There really is no need for anymore discussion.

[mercury.]

Some of the reasoning used to support anti-lgbtqa+ species states that they have experienced oppression too and that our feelings are sort of invalid right?

I understand that almost everyone has been a victim of, or witnessed oppression in their lives. And rather than use this to try and make the playing field seem "equal" I would hope that we could understand one another better. Rather than say that because everyone is oppressed in some fashion, it isn't a big deal, I would hope that we would be able to empathize. To stand together as people who know how it feels and want to help.
this vid is relevant

The amount of heteronormacy people part of the lgbtqa+ community experience on a daily level is astounding. To be able to come online to CS, a site that is known for its neutrality and experience the same heteronormacy is hard.

Many species on here are humanized to an extreme extent, and I love that! The rp possibilities are amazing!! Which is why the whole natural breeding is not an excuse to not allow these characters to fall in love.

Think about humans which heavily influence these species. A cisgirl and a cisgirl cannot have kids but that is not the be-all end all of love!

[Chomp]

Also, I'd like to go back and say that heterophobia is absolutely not real. You don't get killed for being hetero. You don't get bullied for being hetero. You don't get looked down upon or kicked out of your home for being hetero. You don't have people constantly telling you you're wrong and trying to deny your rights and existence. It does not exist.

Ding ding ding, kuroo wins.
You do not know what homophobia feels like because some people tell you that your intolerance is unacceptable.
You have not felt the systematic oppression that is put upon LGBTQ+ members. Your sexuality isn't illegal in parts of the world. You do not have to hide from family and friends, you do not have to live with the fact that you cannot be open about who you are out of the fear of being gay/bi/pan/ect. You do not know what homophobia feels like.

This was bugging me, it was a wee bit off topic but I had to get it out.

I have more errands to run before I can focus on this but this isn't intolerance of a person, this is intolerance of peoples intolerance towards my species being the way that makes me happy and makes me comfortable. But I DO not what it means to be oppressed, and homosexuality isn't the only thing in the world being oppressed right now. Little children are dying for my beliefs in parts of the world, mothers and fathers are being tortured in the worst ways possible, people are being kidnapped, and this is all going on right now. And there are a number of situations arising in the US. You can't tell me that I don't know what oppression feels like because that's absolutely wrong.

And being vegetarian is something that is deeply ingrained in a lot of people. They CAN eat meat, and that sense it's a choice, just as much as LBTQ+ people CAN technically date someone of a sexual orientation that they don't prefer.

"more disputes like this over the rule itself being unfair and enabling prejudice"

Except the rule doesn't enable prejudice. If it were directly opposed to users of different communities that's one thing, but it's applied to private species, where the artist already has choices over so much else. It simply gives them the extra control that they should have from the beginning.

"also, small tangent, heterophobia is not a thing."

Oppression isn't the meaning of homophobia. It literally means fear of homosexuality and homosexuals. So if you want to be technical, that's not a thing either (or at least there are very few people who are actually diagnosed to be phobic of homosexuals). But people are oppressing straight people more often all the time, and while I still don't have time to pull up sources, it's happening, and there are heterosexuals being oppressed. Right now there is a mentality that exists in the world, especially the US, that says, "if you're white, male, straight, then shut up" basically - and if you happen to fall under any of these categories, your opinions are snuffed out, your concerns left unacknowledged no matter how reasonable, and overall people are becoming far more aggressive towards those who they believe are not oppressed, causing them in actuality to become oppressed. Basically if you DON'T fit into the "oppressed" category, people are claiming rights to be flat out awful to those who fall under anything else. You can't justify hate like that.

[monty]

I have more errands to run before I can focus on this but this isn't intolerance of a person, this is intolerance of peoples intolerance towards my species being the way that makes me happy and makes me comfortable. But I DO not what it means to be oppressed, and homosexuality isn't the only thing in the world being oppressed right now. Little children are dying for my beliefs in parts of the world, mothers and fathers are being tortured in the worst ways possible, people are being kidnapped, and this is all going on right now. And there are a number of situations arising in the US. You can't tell me that I don't know what oppression feels like because that's absolutely wrong.

And being vegetarian is something that is deeply ingrained in a lot of people. They CAN eat meat, and that sense it's a choice, just as much as LBTQ+ people CAN technically date someone of a sexual orientation that they don't prefer.

"more disputes like this over the rule itself being unfair and enabling prejudice"

Except the rule doesn't enable prejudice. If it were directly opposed to users of different communities that's one thing, but it's applied to private species, where the artist already has choices over so much else. It simply gives them the extra control that they should have from the beginning.

"also, small tangent, heterophobia is not a thing."

Oppression isn't the meaning of homophobia. It literally means fear of homosexuality and homosexuals. So if you want to be technical, that's not a thing either (or at least there are very few people who are actually diagnosed to be phobic of homosexuals). But people are oppressing straight people more often all the time, and while I still don't have time to pull up sources, it's happening, and there are heterosexuals being oppressed. Right now there is a mentality that exists in the world, especially the US, that says, "if you're white, male, straight, then shut up" basically - and if you happen to fall under any of these categories, your opinions are snuffed out, your concerns left unacknowledged no matter how reasonable, and overall people are becoming far more aggressive towards those who they believe are not oppressed, causing them in actuality to become oppressed. Basically if you DON'T fit into the "oppressed" category, people are claiming rights to be flat out awful to those who fall under anything else. You can't justify hate like that.

Puffsnouts, also, can never be gay, bi, or lesbian. Males always like females, and females always like males. Please respect this rule.

This isn't really a rule that's enforceable for us. We can't chase someone down if they chose to make their puffsnout gay/bi/lesbian without permission... If you want to adopt out a species with these specific rules you are probably better off moving them over to DA to be sold there.

I would strongly recommend reading that.
If you are truly wanting to close your species to homosexuals then you can do so on dA. CS doesn't support that rule and honestly, I doubt it ever will for the sake of restricting other's rights so you're more comfortable. CS is a LGBT-friendly site and a lot of us wouldn't be here if it wasn't.

[Tricey]

Abel, please don't mock; it does nothing for an argument.
We all feel love (except psychopaths I suppose), but what we're talking about here is attraction. They are most certainly not the same thing. Love is caring for someone to the purest extent; being willing to sacrifice your own desires for them. Attraction differs. I have no idea how to explain attraction, but I believe you all understand what I mean. That gut feeling, when you're like: "Woah".
This standard would not prohibit love. The specie would simply be hardwired to pass on their genetics. Honestly, I prefer to love than to be attracted to someone. Attraction to my knowledge makes us stupid, but that could just be me c:

[muteani]

"Heterophobia, as straight people “define it,” is a queer person making you check your privilege. Heterophobia is walking into a space that you don’t own and realizing that your rules might not apply here, and that you have to be mindful of your use of pronouns, chosen name and/or consent. Heterophobia is someone telling you that you need to be a better ally and pushing you to be more accountable and mindful in your relationships to others. Heterophobia isn’t a phobia at all but a part of life, realizing that you don’t know everything and that you have learning and growing to do.

If forcing straight people not to erase my bisexuality and be respectful of my gender and the identities of those around me makes me a heterophobe, then sign me up... I won’t stop until my heterophobia is recognized as being valid. I will not rest until we don’t call it heterophobia anymore. We can just call it demanding respect.

I’ll tell you what heterophobia isn’t. Heterophobia is not equivalent to a systemic norm that bullies queer youth and tells them they aren’t good enough to live. Heterophobia didn’t push me down on the playground or throw my backpack in the garbage. Heterophobia didn’t whisper behind my back or make me feel like no one would ever be friends with me, if they knew who I really was. Heterophobia didn’t ignore me when I came out or ruin my relationship with my father or scream “Hey, there’s the [homophobic slur]!” in my high school hallway. Heterophobia didn’t tell me I didn’t belong in church. Heterophobia didn’t tell me that God wanted me dead.

Because it doesn’t exist... It’s the tool of those who would rather keep the system the way it is, or refuse to recognize there’s a system at all, than work to change it. Heterophobia says you are wrong and irrational for critiquing the system. Heterophobia says that good queers don’t question their second class status, because their worth is conferred on them by agreeing with straight people. Heterophobia says that good queers stay quiet. Heterophobia says you shouldn’t fight back."



from this very informative article about "heterophobia" {{ there is some strong language, I omitted some of it }}

being a vegetarian is NOT like being queer; I never made any choice to not be attracted to guys, I CANNOT feel attraction towards a guy because that is what sexuality means; it is not dating, it is ATTRACTION, which is something you cannot control
vegetarians have actively made a choice to not eat meat for moral, religious, or other reasons; they weren't born a vegetarian, but queer people were born queer and can NEVER change that fact
unless you have a dietary condition that prevents you from eating meat, it is still a choice. sexuality isn't

there is a difference between seeing oppression and hearing about it, and living it. nothing more can be said about that.


but we have severely digressed from the issue; you are enabling this to be an issue of LGBT+ rights versus artist rights, which is important, but not the only issue with this petition

you have overlooked many of the issues, such as the enforcement issues, which are a tangible issue that will become prevalent if this were to become a rule