Snakes

[taurus ;]

Yeah, that really annoys me! Khaa will only eat live most of the time and will sometimes stop eating for weeks if I even try to offer him f/t once and people still bash me. Some people even going as far to say that I get satisfaction out of seeing the rats be strangled/crushed to death by my snake and I don't!
But if I let me snake starve until he had no choice but to eat f/t(I know some people who actually do this) I would still be a bad person.

The rat is going to die either by a snake or CO2, so I don't get why people still try to defend them. Seems like the only way vegans&vegetarians(the crazy radical PETA kind lmao) will be happy is if we feed meat eating animals veggies, which isn't happening anytime soon lol.

[The Last Raven]

Yeah, that really annoys me! Khaa will only eat live most of the time and will sometimes stop eating for weeks if I even try to offer him f/t once and people still bash me. Some people even going as far to say that I get satisfaction out of seeing the rats be strangled/crushed to death by my snake and I don't!
But if I let me snake starve until he had no choice but to eat f/t(I know some people who actually do this) I would still be a bad person.

The rat is going to die either by a snake or CO2, so I don't get why people still try to defend them. Seems like the only way vegans&vegetarians(the crazy radical PETA kind lmao) will be happy is if we feed meat eating animals veggies, which isn't happening anytime soon lol.

This! I have to feed all of mine live. They completely ignore it the moment I offer them f/t (and I know they are hungry). Yes, there are some dangers when feeding live and I am always watchful when feeding, but it's no different than being out in the wild! People get so upset over a natural predator killing to eat. It's just how it goes. Circle of life folks.

[kivr & fireflii]

I think the thing I don't like the most is just how many people (mostly breeders) just repeat traditional methods. That is things like "it's worked for # years", "I have ## of snakes and they all do well", or the worst one, "if they eat, shed, and breed they're fine." Like oh my god... raise your standards?! Living is not thriving. Ball pythons are not rocks! They do move around if you give them the space, they need enrichment just like any other animal, they're not supposed to live in shoe boxes with only paper towels, a water bowl, and MAYBE a single hide their whole life where they can't even stretch out all the way. :X Like I cannot believe people keep their adult ball pythons in a 41qt its whole life. Soba is about 900g in a 42q, and he's been a bit too big for it for about 200g. People outside the reptile hobby would probably look at those sterile, breeder, rack systems and compare it to a puppy mill because that's basically what it is. The fact that most people in the hobby encourage others to go as cheap, easy, and basic as possible is so harmful to the snakes and the hobby. We should be ashamed of ourselves for encouraging that IMO.

And also with that, as y'all kind of mentioned above, I really wish people would be a bit more open minded about other methods. Tubs is not the only method of keeping, and yes while tanks aren't really suggested, they CAN work. People need to stop shaming others for feeding live or keeping their snake in a tank or not doing bioactive, etc. Some understanding and kindness in this hobby toward new keepers wouldn't be amiss.

(I speak of the general hobby community of course. CS ball python community here is very friendly in my experience.)
-fireflii

[snowdrake]

I think the thing I don't like the most is just how many people (mostly breeders) just repeat traditional methods. That is things like "it's worked for # years", "I have ## of snakes and they all do well", or the worst one, "if they eat, shed, and breed they're fine." Like oh my god... raise your standards?! Living is not thriving. Ball pythons are not rocks! They do move around if you give them the space, they need enrichment just like any other animal, they're not supposed to live in shoe boxes with only paper towels, a water bowl, and MAYBE a single hide their whole life where they can't even stretch out all the way. :X Like I cannot believe people keep their adult ball pythons in a 41qt its whole life. Soba is about 900g in a 42q, and he's been a bit too big for it for about 200g. People outside the reptile hobby would probably look at those sterile, breeder, rack systems and compare it to a puppy mill because that's basically what it is. The fact that most people in the hobby encourage others to go as cheap, easy, and basic as possible is so harmful to the snakes and the hobby. We should be ashamed of ourselves for encouraging that IMO.

And also with that, as y'all kind of mentioned above, I really wish people would be a bit more open minded about other methods. Tubs is not the only method of keeping, and yes while tanks aren't really suggested, they CAN work. People need to stop shaming others for feeding live or keeping their snake in a tank or not doing bioactive, etc. Some understanding and kindness in this hobby toward new keepers wouldn't be amiss.

(I speak of the general hobby community of course. CS ball python community here is very friendly in my experience.)
-fireflii

I've actually made a whole post abou it here. I totally share your opinion! If you want to read my post prepare for a very strong opinion though ^-^"

[kivr & fireflii]

Oooh yes, this always grinds my gears. lol I don't see anything wrong with rack system themselves (I've seen some great ones with enrichment, etc. in racks), but not the sterile, minimalistic type set ups we typically see in rack systems from breeders. It's a bad image for the hobby, and it's bad for the snakes, too. :\ This a rack system that's a GREAT example of a rack system with appropriate space, enrichment, etc. (close up of one of the tubs). Owned by cup-noodle on tumblr (don't think they're on here, but not sure). But this a prime example of what we should encourage for racks and what we should be PROUD of. They're not even my snakes, but I'm proud to share them. lol I LOVE showing people what I've done with my snakes (although they both need upgrades right now...), and I love to brag about it. I don't get why so many breeders (and a few other pet keepers) keep their snakes like that for the sake of cost. There's nothing to be proud about that except "look how many of these cool morphs I have." Like... great... you sound like a hoarder.
-fireflii

[The Last Raven]

Oooh yes, this always grinds my gears. lol I don't see anything wrong with rack system themselves (I've seen some great ones with enrichment, etc. in racks), but not the sterile, minimalistic type set ups we typically see in rack systems from breeders. It's a bad image for the hobby, and it's bad for the snakes, too. :\ This a rack system that's a GREAT example of a rack system with appropriate space, enrichment, etc. (close up of one of the tubs). Owned by cup-noodle on tumblr (don't think they're on here, but not sure). But this a prime example of what we should encourage for racks and what we should be PROUD of. They're not even my snakes, but I'm proud to share them. lol I LOVE showing people what I've done with my snakes (although they both need upgrades right now...), and I love to brag about it. I don't get why so many breeders (and a few other pet keepers) keep their snakes like that for the sake of cost. There's nothing to be proud about that except "look how many of these cool morphs I have." Like... great... you sound like a hoarder.
-fireflii

This is a perfect example of what I will be doing in the future. I plan on becoming a breeder once I have a house in a few years so I won't be able to get tanks for all of my babies, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to provide them a suitable living space. Currently my three BPs each have a nice tank set up, but it can be difficult to find the funds and space once a breeding program is begun.

[snowdrake]

Oooh yes, this always grinds my gears. lol I don't see anything wrong with rack system themselves (I've seen some great ones with enrichment, etc. in racks), but not the sterile, minimalistic type set ups we typically see in rack systems from breeders. It's a bad image for the hobby, and it's bad for the snakes, too. :\ This a rack system that's a GREAT example of a rack system with appropriate space, enrichment, etc. (close up of one of the tubs). Owned by cup-noodle on tumblr (don't think they're on here, but not sure). But this a prime example of what we should encourage for racks and what we should be PROUD of. They're not even my snakes, but I'm proud to share them. lol I LOVE showing people what I've done with my snakes (although they both need upgrades right now...), and I love to brag about it. I don't get why so many breeders (and a few other pet keepers) keep their snakes like that for the sake of cost. There's nothing to be proud about that except "look how many of these cool morphs I have." Like... great... you sound like a hoarder.
-fireflii

yes, I'd also see this as a great example. I am kind of against racks in general but if the snakes have enough space and hides etc. they actually seem like a really nice thing!

[taurus ;]

A lot of people that have been caring for reptiles and have been in the reptile business
for years are very set in their ways. Which can be both good and bad, most have almost 100% success in the ways of caring for the snakes, but also some of their ways are very outdated too.
I'm not against tubs at all, they just need to have more than just a water bowl in them.
Some people can't keep their snakes in tanks and for that matter since ball pythons are a shy snake species, so they do horrible in tanks anyways. And if they all did do well in tanks you really can't have 1000+ snakes and have them all in tanks, it isn't space, time or cost efficient, breeders have to be all three to be successful.
As for the hoarder thing, a hoarder can be described as people who have multiple animals and cannot care for them properly, which isn't most snake breeders. For most snake breeders,
their snakes are their livelihood so why wouldn't they take care of them properly ??

And on another site someone said why would buy a $45,000 snake morph and stick it in a tub and I'm like....the same reason why you would do that to a normal ???

[snowdrake]

A lot of people that have been caring for reptiles and have been in the reptile business
for years are very set in their ways. Which can be both good and bad, most have almost 100% success in the ways of caring for the snakes, but also some of their ways are very outdated too.
I'm not against tubs at all, they just need to have more than just a water bowl in them.
Some people can't keep their snakes in tanks and for that matter since ball pythons are a shy snake species, so they do horrible in tanks anyways. And if they all did do well in tanks you really can't have 1000+ snakes and have them all in tanks, it isn't space, time or cost efficient, breeders have to be all three to be successful.
As for the hoarder thing, a hoarder can be described as people who have multiple animals and cannot care for them properly, which isn't most snake breeders. For most snake breeders,
their snakes are their livelihood so why wouldn't they take care of them properly ??

And on another site someone said why would buy a $45,000 snake morph and stick it in a tub and I'm like....the same reason why you would do that to a normal ???

I do understand that hoarders breeders not hoarders, lol have to take those things into consideration. they have a valid reason to keep snakes in tubs, even though it's still not great for the animals in most cases. my main problem with tubs is that hobbyists are keeping their animals in them. while there are indeed great ways to 'decorate' big enough tubs with proper substrate, hides, a big enough water bowl and - depending on the species - possiblilities for the snake to dig and/or climb most people just put a paper towel down as the substrate and a water bowl that's not big enough for the snake to lay in. sometimes they give the snake a little shoe box to hide in. so, the snake litterally just lays around all day and does nothing. I know snakes don't do much but they do move around, they do not do nothing at all all day long. take my corn snake for example: he loves to take sunbaths on his branch and he loves to dig into his substrate (even though he's not really good at it lol). in a tub like the bad example above he wouldn't be able to do any of that. so, yes, rack systems are a cheap way to keep many animals but as a hobbyist your main goal shouldn't be to keep as many snakes as possible but to have fun and put effort into what you are doing.

little snipped of what I wrote in my post:


so, what if you don't have the money as hobbyist to buy a tank with substrate, hiding spots etc. for all your snakes? simply don't go and buy yourself 10 freaking retics and put them in drawers afterwards. if you don't have the money to properly keep such a large animal then don't buy it! why is this so hard to understand? I get if you want more than one of those snakes, I'd love to keep more than my one corn snake as well, but doing this - to me - is just a form of hoarding your pets. just think of it: you are keeping your animals above each other in small spaces. the only time they really see sunlight is when you feed them or handle them etc. they can barely move at all and other than the ceiling above their head most of the time they don't have any hiding spots they can lay in.

[blueh]

ohhh if we're talking about things that annoy us in snakes I've got a few,,,

the first thing that absolutely gets me is the "I've been keeping this animal for x years and it's been fine" which is GREAT, congrats on your experience but animal care is FLUID. it changes all the time and if you're not keeping up with it, it can be super detrimental to your animals. you SHOULDN'T be keeping an animal the EXACT same way for twenty years. husbandry changes as research grows.

with the tiny rack systems, I always try to stay away from breeders who do that because they often treat their snakes like stock and not the actual, living animals that they are. Like, yeah, sure, its how breeders make their living and run their business but they should not be sacrificing their animal's welfare in order to make money.

another thing that i hate is pretty controversial, especially with breeders, but I can't stand anyone who breeds snakes with known issues (super cinnamon, spider, champagne, etc). like,,, can we not breed animals with problems just because people think they're pretty. and then LIE to the general public about it.