Ace Attorney!

[NormalHero]

DD is one of my favorites in the series, though a lot if fans didn't like it much. I guess I can see why though, mostly it seems people were disappointed that Apollo's backstory in DD never touched upon the questions never answered in AJ. Though we did get Clay out of the deal, but it's too bad we never really got to know him
But I feel we did learn a lot about Apollo as a character. Nothing makes you learn more about a person than a tragedy.

[autumnal.]

Really? DD got pretty decent reviews from what I've seen, and the people who didn't like DD didn't even like Trials & Tribulations (more specifically, they hated Bridge to the Turnabout), so I kinda just figured that they were just really difficult to please.
However, I can kinda see where they're coming from when they complained about Apollo. I liked his portions in the game, but the actual process of doing it was kind of underwhelming, in my opinion. But hey– he's even going to have his own story arc in AA6! 8D Maybe he can learn about his living family. HINT, HINT, CAPCOM.

Speaking of, what do you guys think of AA6? Athena has been getting some backlash and we haven't gotten any news about her being in there, which is kinda disappointing. I want to see Maya (Kingdom of Kurain, come on!) and I want to hear a remix of Turnabout Sisters Ballad. Play DD where you get the letter from Maya, mute your DS, then play Turnabout Sisters Ballad. I did it, and the music was so much more effective than, ugh, Trucy's theme. I really like Trucy's theme, but it just didn't fit for that letter.

Man, did I get off topic.

Just shows that when I start talking about AA, I can't stop.

[NormalHero]

As much backlash as Athena got, they can't just erase her from existence. They made her so they'll have to go along with her. My thoughts is that she is probably going to be working with Apollo back home in Japanafornia. The sneak peaks we do have if the game are pretty limited so we don't really have enough to say who will and who won't be in AA6. I do hope Athena plays some role in the game. Same with Trucy, because she sort if got upstaged by Athena in DD given they needed to give some time to the "new assistant". Part f me hopes that there will be a game where we can play as Athena more. I'm not crazy about the fact that Athena is labeled as an "assistant". Usually assistants are people who aren't qualified to be lawyers and just sort if tag along, but Athena is a qualified lawyer so I'd like to see her treated as one. So what if age is a rookie, we got games were we played Phoenix and Apollo as rookies. I wonder if people would have liked Athena more if they got to play more as her.

[Apollo Justice]

Athena isn't exactly my favorite character, but she was such a big part in DD that Capcom pretty much is required to keep her. I did enjoy playing as her, and I agree that she needs to stop being classified as an assistant.

[NormalHero]

Yeah, I don't dislike Athena but she's not at the top of my list. I think part of that is simply because we don't know her as well. We never got the opportunity to really personalize with her like we did Phoenix, Apollo, and even Miles. That's why I think she needs more time as the main character.

[autumnal.]

People didn't like her bwcause she's a Mary-Sue. The the flaw one she really had was resolved at the end of the game, so I can see where they're coming from. But maybe, like you guys said, if we got to play as her more, she'd be more fleshed out and less Mary-Sue-y.

[NormalHero]

That's kind of a thing that bugs me though. If a male character like Phoenix or Apollo does all the right things, they are a hero, but if a female character like Athena does all the right things she is a Mary-Sue. We know now that Phoenix and Apollo have their flaws as we saw Phoenix's bad side in AJ and Apollo's in DD. But before these games we never accused either character of being too perfect. In fact some people even got turned off by Apollo and Phoenix's less than glorious moments saying that they will never look at them the same way again. Remember how upset people were that Phoenix in AJ was not only out if work but bitter, and kind of a jerk? That's not the shinning hero they remember so they hated it, some fans make headcanons that deny it ever really happened. And yet for Athena we complain that she isn't flawed enough.

[autumnal.]

No, Phoenix and Apollo definitely had their problems, and people just didn't like Phoenix acting the way in AJ because it felt like everything that happened in the trilogy went down the drain. I think the reason that CAPCOM made Athena so "perfect" was because people thought Apollo was too dependent on Klavier for giving him all the answers in AJ and they didn't want to make the same mistake, but just went a little over the top with it. The biggest issue that people had was Athena being able to major in psychology and law, and graduate at the age of eighteen. See, it worked (kind of) with Franziska because she had noticeable flaws, and was more relatable to players. You don't really get that with Athena.

[NormalHero]

But it's difficult to compare Athena with Franziska. The two of them ended up they way they did for different reasons, and Athena won for her reason, and Franziska lost for hers. Franziska needed to loose to learn that perfection isn't everything, and what really mattered in her job as an attorney is finding the truth and bringing justice. Athena needed to win because she had someone to save. She is a lot more like Phoenix than like Franziska. They both began their jobs as lawyers so they could save someone they cared about. Athena just had more of a time crunch given that it was a matter of life or death, so she did everything she could and studied in Europe to get a law degree at a younger age. Even so she still got her degree later than other lawyers who did the same such as Klavier (who got it at seventeen), and Franziska (who got it at thirteen)
As for the relationship between Klavier and Apollo, I think it's just an illusion. Klavier was much more encouraging than past prosecutors, but really he never helped you any more than any past prosecutors. It was simply the difference between "I'm winning what do you say to that?" And "What do you think about the witness's testimony Her Forehead?"
As for Phoenix sure Farewell My Turnabout was quite a test of morals but in the end he ended up getting everything he wanted. I don't see how that is much different from what Athena had to go through.

[autumnal.]

I wasn't comparing Athena to Franziska, I was just saying that Franziska wasn't very Mary-Sue-ish even though she became a prosecutor five years earlier than Athena. Bringing her up doesn't really fit for this debate. Apologies.

Anyways, I like Klavier and the idea to have a "nice" prosecutor, but it didn't give a lot of tension in knowing that the "enemy" wasn't even really against you, and was spoon-feeding Apollo answers and couldn't really think for himself.

How was what Phoenix went through in "Farewell My Turnabout" similar to what Athena did in DD? I don't remember DD exactly, so correct me if I'm wrong, but their main goals were drastically different. Phoenix, like you said, was having a war with what was the difference between right and wrong, but Athena was just going through trying to save her friend from death row. If anything, Apollo (and Phoenix, even) was the one warring between right and wrong.