"The" Rares List Guide - Do not ask about new UR's!

[ElementalInsanity]

@Coffee The list won't ever go away entirely. It's to help people understand what pets are rarest on CS, and that won't change. ^^ Along that same note, these pets won't ever even almost be like normal pets because, again, they're the rarest ones on CS. However a rarity only list could help out in that area, hopefully at least, so that absurd overpay and greedy demand wouldn't be as much of a thing.

@Grr Why would a rarity only list confuse a newer member anymore than the list we have now? Personally, the list we have now to me is more confusing than a fact based rarity only list. The FTT will still be here, and people can ask questions as far as demand. I think there was a consideration of a thread similar to the items guide that would have recent trades to show demand, but a demand list (as far as I know) is a no go because of how much it would have to be updated.

edit: was ninja'd by post before me, haven't had a chance to read it. ^^

[Imabox]

@Coffee: a rarity only list is exactly what we are thinking about doing

@grr. Zetirian already kind of mentioned it, but yeah currently how the list works now would actually make it harder for new players because now there are VRs that are worth more than or equal to OMGSRs which just doesn't make sense.

Aside from that we don't plan on having this new list be a what it says is the end game. I mentioned this a little while ago, but the idea of the new list would be to use a a vague guideline not a rule book. The current List puts values to the pets. a Non is worth 3 Sorbets and now that is a rule. The new list would be more of your Non is worth around these pets based on how many people own one. You can get more or less, but that is up to you and your trading partner.

The hope from this is that people will stop putting rigid values to pets (like the Joker = a Non) and it'll become more of a I like the Joker more than a Non and they are worth about the same so I will trade a Non for a Joker (with your partner in a similar agreement of I like the Non more than the Joker so I'll trade my Joker for a Non). There will still be pets that people like more no matter what but it's to encourage people to trade for what they like instead of how valuable it is compared to other pets.

[DaDwarf]

I still think using supply or availability makes things easier to understand, but with that i do mean what the supply was during the pets release. So for example, a pet that is very rare and from 08 has less supply then a pet that is very rare and from 2016. This has to do eith that rarity scale.

Using nick je's example (very wrong number!!!! Just an example!!! Do not take as fact!!!)
If the rarity scale for very rare is between 1000 and 500 pets per user, we can assume that a pet that just went very rare is on the low side of the scale while a pet that has shippered between omg and very rare is on the high side.

So this for example means that a pet that drops down in rarity is on the 1000 end, and due to the rerelease gets 1 more oet per user, it drops to rare. Thats what the coontail does, its omg so rare but enough get released each time so that it drops to very rare.. it moves back up as new people join, so its right at that 500 mark.

I think its safe to assume that pets released in 2008, even with the rerelease, are a fair bit rarer then pets from 2016. pets are rereleased in the same volume to not make them loose too much rarity at once (so say 500 sorbets were released per 500 users in 08, the quantity would be the same in perspective if in 2016 5000 people adopted a sorbet. So then 5000 sprbets)

We can only ask for another rarity tag and if staff wont commply thats what we will have to work with. How rare was a pet when it came out, and is it really that rare or was it just in demand.

Case august pps. Upon release, 6 of my friends adopted one, i got one as a gift a month after release because i wasnt near internet the whole month and didnt have time to trade for it. They were everywhere, they were very rare, but they were traded quite a bunch and certainly didnt go for advent or,list pets from the start. Thats something that pushing demand did, with people continuesly saying 'you can get more, you can get better). Yes, now a days its harder to find but theres also a gazillion hoards for it. Its a very rare, but its def not a very rarw thats at the top of the very rare scale imo?

[Goostarion]

@DaDwarf

I disagree on a technicality. All VR pet's use the same VR pet scale regardless of release (or have been situatedly re-arranged to use said scale), and re-releases are released over and over again and have had years of this treatment, especially those from '08 which have faced... 9 years of re-releases (Re-releasing started in 08, continued every year so 09, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16). My point is 9 years of re-release for some pets vs a VR pet released once in CS's lifetime. That one pet won't be re-released for a while (Several years) so by this stage theoretically it could be guesstimated while thousands of VR's of the same pet are re-released, this one rat who is a champion in my eyes, would have for sure just done the impossible and could be worth a lot more if no date identity was taken into consideration. Pets which are (FAKE NUMBERS INCOMING) 1:550 users who are going up and down throughout the year but are re-released will always hover around this area. This one rat's will increase and continue to increase for several years before it becomes part of the "re-release clan". Right now it could be 1:200, by the time it hits re-release, that pet could be 1:600 because users who were on during that event are no longer around, and the pet hasn't been re-released and is most likely forgotten about. (Fake Numbers ended)

By all accounts, a Pet which is released at VR in '16 (EG: Space advent rat) could arguably and theorietically be debated and convinced to be rarer than a '08 October dog because while that dog has been re-released over and over and over to obtain a VR rating it has (going down to rare on occasion) whereas the rat advent was a pet which started as VR on the spot.

For a pet to gain a VR rating with the current CS population is MASSIVE. I mean holy crap.

This is also a reason why I am a little iffy with the use of dates to determine a pet's fairness, especially when things are re-released. This can be argued for every VR pet that has been released as well, for instance the August PPS. August PPS to me is the beginning of the Greed train.

So with that logic, by technicality there can be discussion of VR's from later years can be added.

I really want this whole new rarity tag thing, because that will prove this point I've highlighted right. That through rarity, pet's released in 2016 or later can be an actual addition onto the list. If there was this new tag on the rarity system and suddenly the space rat became that rarity, it could mean it takes over pets we see on the list already.

-----

Going to do some math related. Note: REAL NUMBERS BUT THIS DOESN"T REALLY CHANGE ANYTHING, IT JUST PROVES A POINT.

Pet that is VR is 1:80-1:999 hypothetically going by '09 numbers

CS Population active daily in '08 when a '08 pet is released: (Unique views) *Note: number going off 1/18 users created staying around and being online as This user is the last user to have ever been created in '08. proof here: Link
CS Population active during an event in '08: (Again going off a 1/18, though lots of people applied around December First user to make an account in December before the re-release Proof: Link)
CS Population active daily in '16 when a '16 pet is released: [First user: First user in Dec 16] vs [Last user: http://www.chickensmoothie.com/Forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=844139] meaning that CS population growth between these months is at 2-1 ratio of people joining this month.
9401 new users in '16 (take one user ID and subtract it from another)
4184 new users '08 (take one user ID and subtract it from another)
Means growth around Re-release has increased 1:2 rounded to nearest full digit. It's incredible. Though I digress.
There is the whole difference. Last person in '08 was under 20,000 in ID. The last person in '16 is under 850,000. That's a 4250% increase in population. (Math: (850,000/20,000)*(100/1) to find out percentage rule)

CS Population is very out of wack here since discovering the math in numbers. It's like 1:42.5 ratio.

INSERT PET WHERE WHOSE RARITY has stayed constant through growth, for a pet rarity to decrease after the update, means more than what was originally released in '08 was re-released. So if there is 1000 unique visitors a day, means that 1/12 approx users had a Pet which whose rarity has stayed constant through growth at miminum (Going by the 1:80 minimum rule for a VR, this also means that number is less if that pet is like 1:500). By today's scale this pet is 43x rarer because of the number math, regardless of how VR it is. (1:42.5 ratio) But, that pet would have at maximum 43x more of them around the site since '08.

Edit: I lost interest in finishing this off. Very hard to math on mobile have to admit ^^

But... I kind of proved in a way that a pet is 40x or so more common now number wise to keep up ratio with population. That number will increase with re-releases. If a pet which is in this environment of 40x plus is released, then you know... It won't be re-released in two years. The rarity of how it gets rarer is faster now than it is back then. Users are joining, but maybe 1/18 in '08 and more like 1/36 or more accounts are used today. So... Higher chance of inactive accounts too. Means that ratio of pets released now will be higher than originally thought. Like a '08 dog will grow from 1:300 -> 1:400 before re-releasing each year if it stays VR the whole time. But a '16 rare could be 1:100 start off and end up 1:400 by the time it is re-released two years later.

TL;DR: Maybe comparing '08 numbers to now isn't a good idea.

[DaDwarf]

@above, thats a whole lot of math haha!

In regard to the rarity tag - yes you are right. But!! Don't forget i was talking about supply + availability. A lot of the older pets have found their 'forever homes' as one would say, so that generally is why the 'if it's older its worth more' thing works.

As for that specific rat - it's an event rat, only available during a token trade in? For event pets there are 'different' rules as they are generally rarer then just monthly outcomes, which are free and require no work. This can be seen in all rarity tags, most free pets take a while before the become rare and it's been a while when something normal adopt went very rare right of the bat (i can't actually remember when the last time was.. august pps??)


And while you are correct that the 08's have been in the rerelease the longest, they do get release at the same frequency as when they originally got released. with this i mean that for example (FAKE NUMBERS AHEAD) it's 1 sunback vs 5 toxics, every single release this is a number that's going to come back (or so i'm under the impression that that's what nick has said back in the day). This is to maintain rareness so that no pet drops down too far. so while you can argue that there should be more sunbacks in the game because they get rereleased every year since 08, this isn't actually the case because they do get rereleased since 08 but in the same ratio, so maintaining their worth.. idk how to say it otherwise, the pets get rereleased at the same ratio as back when there weren't so many users on site sorta?

(and yes, in my opinion anything that is very rare and has maintained a very rare position is rarer then a rare or even a very rare that has gone up and down. I'm totally with you on that. But i don't think something that was very rare in 2016 is worth the same as something that is very rare in 2008 because of how large the scale is. aside from using availability and supply we can't really do more then guesstimate where each very rare would go on the scale.)

Yes, the scale of rarity (especially the VR rarity) is very big. But with supply and availability, and the records of when what pet changed rarity (if at all) i think we can conjure up a list that will show without demand what is actually the rarest on site.

[Goostarion]

Older- Worth more is... It's silly for me. Forever homes exist, though with simple terms there are more Jokers in a Pound than this one green space rat. I mean the Pound is a good example of a forever home. Which occasionally comes out to play. More are released, some go to forever homes bringing up the rarity higher again, re-released and then it goes down again. Also worth mentioning that while that is happening, this rat is also going into forever homes, maybe moreso since newer users have it and are more willing to trade it as a '16 VR compared to older users / knowledged users keeping older rarer pets in forever homes. I mean older pets will go into forever homes and younger ones will be traded, but under the radar. And disregarded. A lot. Undervalued to a point too.

Supply and availability should definitely be taken into consideration. Reason why I did the math is long story short, this one rat for instance could be in this group of list pet's in '18/'19 if a new rarity is brought out. And realistically, unless you like rats; who is going to find this one green rat? They aren't in demand at all. And there are going to be a ton of them locked up because "omg it's this very rare rat from a '16 event that everyone overlooked and it's super rare what the hell?!?!" kind of thing which is hilarious.

Theoretically, pets from '16 should also be considered. Pretty much any pet should be considered if it starts out as a VR at this point. Any year.

Also with the August PPS scale, in '08 list pets now were traded willy nilly in the day. Same with this rat back in the space event and same with the August PPS. It happens to all of them and then suddenly boom, we have the rarest pets on the site.

With the one of a specie worth more than another, that's good to keep. It helps define pets in their rarity locations. I agree with that part.

The Rat comes with the same sort of situation as the Halloween list pets on the September lists. It's why this is being used as the prime example.

I mean... I am sitting here at 10PM on my mobile bringing up how recent pets can theoretically become as rare as a list pet without being store pet and by the same rules. It... It's crazy.. I mean on one hand what am I doing with my life and on the other the math doesn't really lie in a way and it's hilariously.. traumatizing. I need panadol, I gave myself a headache thinking of this too much.

[Solloby]

Despite being rereleased every year since 2009, the Sunback once went OMGSR (I think it was around midyear or end of year, so it would have been users with Sunbacks going on hiatus or leaving for enough time to drop off the rarity consideration). Tess didn't intend for them to be so rare and I believe the rarity rates for rereleases may have been adjusted in response at the Dec 18 of that year, which is why Sunback is now maintaining its VR tag. I think this shows that age matters. With that said, it's basically impossible to tell how rare a VR pet is compared to other VRs if it has never changed rarity (either from rare or omgsr). As to what to do with them, idk. Are there many of them? I can only think of St Patty Dragon, August PPS Lion and Green Robot Rat offhand.

[marmoris]

The green Robot rat-

I rarely ever see those... I can't remember the last time I saw one. I have one, but I got it forever ago.
I actually do believe it's rare enough to be on the list, but I dunno. It seems like people do like that rat, maybe they are mostly locked up.

I always have been curious on behalf of that rat, was it intended to be so rare..?

[Kveykva]

The green Robot rat-

I rarely ever see those... I can't remember the last time I saw one. I have one, but I got it forever ago.
I actually do believe it's rare enough to be on the list, but I dunno. It seems like people do like that rat, maybe they are mostly locked up.

I always have been curious on behalf of that rat, was it intended to be so rare..?

It's not rare enough enough to be on the list, because age does play a factor in both rarity and availability. I do have one of these rats as well, and don't believe it was intended to be so rare and it just happened that way because:
a) Not a whole lot of people care for rats in general
b) It was a token trade-in pet, and in conjunction with the above reason not too many people spent many tokens trying to get all the robo outcomes.

People are holding onto them now because they saw it's rarity and everyone's like "OMGGG" and they don't want to trade it. At least that's how it is in my experience with that particular rat

[Syn]

The green Robot rat-

I rarely ever see those... I can't remember the last time I saw one. I have one, but I got it forever ago.
I actually do believe it's rare enough to be on the list, but I dunno. It seems like people do like that rat, maybe they are mostly locked up.

I always have been curious on behalf of that rat, was it intended to be so rare..?

It's not rare enough enough to be on the list, because age does play a factor in both rarity and availability. I do have one of these rats as well, and don't believe it was intended to be so rare and it just happened that way because:
a) Not a whole lot of people care for rats in general
b) It was a token trade-in pet, and in conjunction with the above reason not too many people spent many tokens trying to get all the robo outcomes.

People are holding onto them now because they saw it's rarity and everyone's like "OMGGG" and they don't want to trade it. At least that's how it is in my experience with that particular rat

Okay a couple of things in response.
a) True enough but there are a lot of people out there that do care about complete event collections no matter what pets are involved. You saw a ton of people in the summer event swap thread looking for that robo rat that had rules to the effect of 'Don't trade me rats/spiders/ponies/etc' in their rules. Event pets tend to dodge species bias to a degree during their initial release.
b) Again, during events people tend to spend their tokens first to get all the outcomes and second to get extras of things they like. So while yes, fewer people tried to get spares of the robo rats, I'm fairly certain quite a few people spent a lot of tokens trying to get them all and eventually as the event wore down simply gave up and spent their tokens on things they liked.

Another thing not mentioned...the rats were hidden behind a token wall. You had to trade in the banner items for a different type of token...then trade those secondary tokens in for yet a third type of token...then you could trade those in for robo rats. It was fairly difficult to get the tokens needed for those rats in the first place.

Sorry, I'm rambling. The point is it's not unprecedented for extremely rare event pets to make it to the list. The St.Patties dragon did for the better part of a year and a half before it was removed (not sure why, it's always been a massive pain to find those guys for trade). These little robos can still be really difficult to find because a lot of people didn't get doubles and I'd say the majority ones on CS currently are locked in people Space Event collections.