❧ Rєι's Genetics Discussion and Calculation Thread ☙

[~HєуRєι~]

I have a question/request!

What kind of colors/patterns would these two make?

Independence and new mate

He’s meant to be a Shepherd mix. Those can be Fawn though, right?

Shepherd mixes absolutely can be Fawn! Remember: Fawn, Tan, and Gold are all the same color under different names! They vary slightly sometimes but they are all the same base color! Golden Retrievers for example are called "Gold" or "Fawn" when undiluted which basically means the same thing.
Now something funny with GSD, they are actually Tanpoints, but have a gene called RALY that effectively makes the black part of the marking "retreat" as they age from puppy to adulthood- causing the 'Saddle' pattern! RALY can also effect Wild Agouti in the same way! They only need one RALY present to be affected, but it does NOT effect Sable at all!

For fun and because i know how the tail and ear determined genes work, I'll be including those as well! Since we don't know exactly what the agouti markings are on Brave, I'll be assuming a default Ay for sable leaving the recessive open and giving a ky so not all puppies end up black. I am also assuming they do not have the masked gene.

Independence: Masked Black Saddle on Tan with Pseudo Irish ('Pseudo Irish' because Piebald can look within the range of Irish White despite that type of white being in select breeds)
atat / BB / +ct+ct / EmE / dpp / kyky / RALYraly / SSp
Brave: Dominant Black with Extreme Piebald (keep in mind SpSp is what is traditionally used for all forms of high white, Sw is just what most use to explain the extent of white)
Ay / BB / Ct+ct / EE / pp / Kbky / ralyraly / SpSw

Puppy Result: All puppies have white! 25% will have Independence's level of white, %50 will have Brave's level of white or slightly less, %25 will have MORE than Brave and are at risk for deafness if white is on the ears!
All puppies are Black based, 25% are Dominant Black, 25% are Black Sable on Tan, and 50% are Black Tanpoint on Tan. The Tanpoint puppies are 25% RALY, turning the Tanpoint into a Saddle- the other 75% are just normal Tanpoint!
25% of the puppies have a mask, the other 75% do not!
25% of puppies have cocked (also known as half folded) ears, 75% have perked/erect ears (ears that do not fold)!
25% of puppies have a curled tail, 75% have a straight tail!

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I have a question/request!

What kind of colors/patterns would these three make?

Bottom picture, they have a pumpkin but it looks like a basketball…It’s the floppy eared red dog with darker ears. Than the two shepherds.

You can ignore the chihuahua, I want to know what a black shepherd could make with a red and darker dog, and what a white Shepherd could make with a red and darker dog. I feel like they could make red, since it would be a mixed breed and not a pure Shepherd then.

If it helps you identify him, it says Mahogany next to him. Then the two Shepherd dogs are pretty obvious.

Based on the image, the one with the darker ears would be Black Sable on Red with Pseudo Irish White! Some fawn dogs can look that red, but for the sake of fun I'll absolutely consider them red. I'll be going based on Black GSD and White GSD Standards respectively, which have fairly stable recessives compared to mixes! All GSD carry the masking gene and RALY gene, including the breeds that branched out, unless they are recessive red where they cannot carry the masking gene.

Fun thing about both of these- the Black GSD are Recessive Black because they have to keep a standard of being only black dogs, so they can't afford to have any other genes show all of which are dominant to that gene. Meanwhile the White GSD is Recessive Red just with the Intensity gene to make them look white! No white spotting at all!

Mahogany: Black Sable on Red with Pseudo Irish White
AyAy / BB / CNVcnv / EE / dpdp / kyky / ralyraly /SSp
Black Shepherd: Recessive Black
aa / BB / cnvcnv / EmEm / pp / kyky / RALYRALY / SS

Puppy Result: 25% of puppies have Mahogany's level of white or lower! The rest of the puppies have no white at all!
All puppies are Black Sable! 25% are Sable on Red, 75% are Sable on Tan, and all carry Recessive Black! All are also masked carrying non masked!
All are RALY carrying non raly, but none show because there is no tanpoint or wild type agouti to show it on (so no saddles)!
All puppies have Cocked Ears!

Mahogany: Black Sable on Red with Pseudo Irish White
AyAy / BB / CNVcnv / EE / II / dpdp / kyky / ralyraly /SSp
White Shepherd: White
atat / BB / cnvcnv / ee / ii / pp / kyky / RALYRALY / SS

Puppy Result: 25% of puppies have Mahogany's level of white or lower! The rest of the puppies have no white at all!
All puppies are Black Sable carrying Tanpoint! 25% are Sable on Red, 75% are Sable on Tan! All also carry Recessive Red!
All puppies' Red/Tan are diluted to cream. Unfortunately I don't know exactly how Intensity interacts with CNV (aka Saturation) due to lack of research, so assume they are all similar colors to eachother in this case.
All are RALY carrying non raly, but none show because there is no visible tanpoint or wild type agouti to show it on (so no saddles)!
All puppies have Cocked Ears!

[Spiritstar3]

I have a question/request!

What kind of colors/patterns would these two make?

Independence and new mate

He’s meant to be a Shepherd mix. Those can be Fawn though, right?

Shepherd mixes absolutely can be Fawn! Remember: Fawn, Tan, and Gold are all the same color under different names! They vary slightly sometimes but they are all the same base color! Golden Retrievers for example are called "Gold" or "Fawn" when undiluted which basically means the same thing.
Now something funny with GSD, they are actually Tanpoints, but have a gene called RALY that effectively makes the black part of the marking "retreat" as they age from puppy to adulthood- causing the 'Saddle' pattern! RALY can also effect Wild Agouti in the same way! They only need one RALY present to be affected, but it does NOT effect Sable at all!

For fun and because i know how the tail and ear determined genes work, I'll be including those as well! Since we don't know exactly what the agouti markings are on Brave, I'll be assuming a default Ay for sable leaving the recessive open and giving a ky so not all puppies end up black. I am also assuming they do not have the masked gene.

Independence: Masked Black Saddle on Tan with Pseudo Irish ('Pseudo Irish' because Piebald can look within the range of Irish White despite that type of white being in select breeds)
atat / BB / +ct+ct / EmE / dpp / kyky / RALYraly / SSp
Brave: Dominant Black with Extreme Piebald (keep in mind SpSp is what is traditionally used for all forms of high white, Sw is just what most use to explain the extent of white)
Ay / BB / Ct+ct / EE / pp / Kbky / ralyraly / SpSw

Puppy Result: All puppies have white! 25% will have Independence's level of white, %50 will have Brave's level of white or slightly less, %25 will have MORE than Brave and are at risk for deafness if white is on the ears!
All puppies are Black based, 25% are Dominant Black, 25% are Black Sable on Tan, and 50% are Black Tanpoint on Tan. The Tanpoint puppies are 25% RALY, turning the Tanpoint into a Saddle- the other 75% are just normal Tanpoint!
25% of the puppies have a mask, the other 75% do not!
25% of puppies have cocked (also known as half folded) ears, 75% have perked/erect ears (ears that do not fold)!
25% of puppies have a curled tail, 75% have a straight tail!

Oo, nice!
XD that’s really cool.

Ooo, cool. Can’t wait to read this stuff and see how that works.


XD I like the genotype for Independence.
The one for Brave too, but the one for Inde just has cool/unique words.

Ooo, that all sounds so cool.

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I have a question/request!

What kind of colors/patterns would these three make?

Bottom picture, they have a pumpkin but it looks like a basketball…It’s the floppy eared red dog with darker ears. Than the two shepherds.

You can ignore the chihuahua, I want to know what a black shepherd could make with a red and darker dog, and what a white Shepherd could make with a red and darker dog. I feel like they could make red, since it would be a mixed breed and not a pure Shepherd then.

If it helps you identify him, it says Mahogany next to him. Then the two Shepherd dogs are pretty obvious.

Based on the image, the one with the darker ears would be Black Sable on Red with Pseudo Irish White! Some fawn dogs can look that red, but for the sake of fun I'll absolutely consider them red. I'll be going based on Black GSD and White GSD Standards respectively, which have fairly stable recessives compared to mixes! All GSD carry the masking gene and RALY gene, including the breeds that branched out, unless they are recessive red where they cannot carry the masking gene.

Fun thing about both of these- the Black GSD are Recessive Black because they have to keep a standard of being only black dogs, so they can't afford to have any other genes show all of which are dominant to that gene. Meanwhile the White GSD is Recessive Red just with the Intensity gene to make them look white! No white spotting at all!

Mahogany: Black Sable on Red with Pseudo Irish White
AyAy / BB / CNVcnv / EE / dpdp / kyky / ralyraly /SSp
Black Shepherd: Recessive Black
aa / BB / cnvcnv / EmEm / pp / kyky / RALYRALY / SS

Puppy Result: 25% of puppies have Mahogany's level of white or lower! The rest of the puppies have no white at all!
All puppies are Black Sable! 25% are Sable on Red, 75% are Sable on Tan, and all carry Recessive Black! All are also masked carrying non masked!
All are RALY carrying non raly, but none show because there is no tanpoint or wild type agouti to show it on (so no saddles)!
All puppies have Cocked Ears!

Mahogany: Black Sable on Red with Pseudo Irish White
AyAy / BB / CNVcnv / EE / II / dpdp / kyky / ralyraly /SSp
White Shepherd: White
atat / BB / cnvcnv / ee / ii / pp / kyky / RALYRALY / SS

Puppy Result: 25% of puppies have Mahogany's level of white or lower! The rest of the puppies have no white at all!
All puppies are Black Sable carrying Tanpoint! 25% are Sable on Red, 75% are Sable on Tan! All also carry Recessive Red!
All puppies' Red/Tan are diluted to cream. Unfortunately I don't know exactly how Intensity interacts with CNV (aka Saturation) due to lack of research, so assume they are all similar colors to eachother in this case.
All are RALY carrying non raly, but none show because there is no visible tanpoint or wild type agouti to show it on (so no saddles)!
All puppies have Cocked Ears!

Fun fact, he’s based off a dog we had at the rescue I used to work at. The two shepherds are based off another dog from there and then my cousin’s dog.

Ooo, I didn’t know either of those things. Those are both interesting.

Dutch x Mahogany:
Ooo, those sounds so cute.
Love all those results.

Shepard x Mahogany:
Ooo, love those results too.
It’s interesting that the red/tan would dilute to cream.

[~HєуRєι~]

@Spiritstar3 - Litters are super fun like that! Glad they sound cool!!

Love sable honestly its one of my favorite agouti types <3 It varies a lot in intensity from being super hard to tell to being super dark! Gorgeous stuff <3

Yee!! Tan is the base form, Red is the heterozygous form of Saturation (CNV) basically giving the Tan a red tint, which is why CNVcnv is here! Intensity is the I Locus, which independently dilutes tan to a paler color, making them either Cream (Ii) or White (ii). While geneticists know Reds and Cream/White are determined independently from eachother, we don't know how they interact due to lack of breeds that have BOTH those colors. But they are effectively both modifying how the Tan looks!

That is also why you'll get a dog that is diluted from Black to Blue, but still has a tan or even red coloration for the other color, since they are diluted independently from eachother! It can make for fun combinations in designs and can be seen best in the Doberman breed!

[AKJE42]

I have a question/request!

https://wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/1296989c-673b-4573-967b-68aa4185c788/ddlkaa9-8e3b40a5-c4c3-4054-9835-6afdc293d912.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsImV4cCI6MTc0NTU5MTUxNiwiaWF0IjoxNzQ1NTkwOTA2LCJqdGkiOiI2ODBiOWE4NDdhYTAyIiwib2JqIjpbW3sicGF0aCI6IlwvZlwvMTI5Njk4OWMtNjczYi00NTczLTk2N2ItNjhhYTQxODVjNzg4XC9kZGxrYWE5LThlM2I0MGE1LWM0YzMtNDA1NC05ODM1LTZhZmRjMjkzZDkxMi5wbmcifV1dLCJhdWQiOlsidXJuOnNlcnZpY2U6ZmlsZS5kb3dubG9hZCJdfQ.91_mA9jTh-YzHO_BlSMPWqKk20ugTxaVNmR3a34yu1E&filename=claude_cat_over_the_years_by_dracocharizard87_ddlkaa9.png

https://wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/ea914385-70d7-476d-aa3b-37d0c449c464/dfweppr-38a0d4b3-1d5d-4260-bb81-ec30d70cb4b6.jpg?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsImV4cCI6MTc0NTU5MTU1NSwiaWF0IjoxNzQ1NTkwOTQ1LCJqdGkiOiI2ODBiOWFhYmNkNzVkIiwib2JqIjpbW3sicGF0aCI6IlwvZlwvZWE5MTQzODUtNzBkNy00NzZkLWFhM2ItMzdkMGM0NDljNDY0XC9kZndlcHByLTM4YTBkNGIzLTFkNWQtNDI2MC1iYjgxLWVjMzBkNzBjYjRiNi5qcGcifV1dLCJhdWQiOlsidXJuOnNlcnZpY2U6ZmlsZS5kb3dubG9hZCJdfQ.Qkrqx-hd55xADluRLWbGSCa2TM_sWHlBQOPCkS8f_I0&filename=looney_tunes_cartoons_s3_e3a_claude_cat_2_by_giuseppedirosso_dfweppr.jpg

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/fb/7f/2d/fb7f2d1a943bd7d9000f44430cbd04a6--merrie-melodies-claude.jpg

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/F5S_dRmOzRc/maxresdefault.jpg

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/wabbit/images/f/f5/Claudecat.png/revision/latest?cb=20190211143000

Can you guess Claude Cat's (Looney Tunes) realistic phenotype and genotype for his various different character designs?

[~HєуRєι~]

I have a question/request!

https://wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/1296989c-673b-4573-967b-68aa4185c788/ddlkaa9-8e3b40a5-c4c3-4054-9835-6afdc293d912.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsImV4cCI6MTc0NTU5MTUxNiwiaWF0IjoxNzQ1NTkwOTA2LCJqdGkiOiI2ODBiOWE4NDdhYTAyIiwib2JqIjpbW3sicGF0aCI6IlwvZlwvMTI5Njk4OWMtNjczYi00NTczLTk2N2ItNjhhYTQxODVjNzg4XC9kZGxrYWE5LThlM2I0MGE1LWM0YzMtNDA1NC05ODM1LTZhZmRjMjkzZDkxMi5wbmcifV1dLCJhdWQiOlsidXJuOnNlcnZpY2U6ZmlsZS5kb3dubG9hZCJdfQ.91_mA9jTh-YzHO_BlSMPWqKk20ugTxaVNmR3a34yu1E&filename=claude_cat_over_the_years_by_dracocharizard87_ddlkaa9.png

https://wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/ea914385-70d7-476d-aa3b-37d0c449c464/dfweppr-38a0d4b3-1d5d-4260-bb81-ec30d70cb4b6.jpg?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsImV4cCI6MTc0NTU5MTU1NSwiaWF0IjoxNzQ1NTkwOTQ1LCJqdGkiOiI2ODBiOWFhYmNkNzVkIiwib2JqIjpbW3sicGF0aCI6IlwvZlwvZWE5MTQzODUtNzBkNy00NzZkLWFhM2ItMzdkMGM0NDljNDY0XC9kZndlcHByLTM4YTBkNGIzLTFkNWQtNDI2MC1iYjgxLWVjMzBkNzBjYjRiNi5qcGcifV1dLCJhdWQiOlsidXJuOnNlcnZpY2U6ZmlsZS5kb3dubG9hZCJdfQ.Qkrqx-hd55xADluRLWbGSCa2TM_sWHlBQOPCkS8f_I0&filename=looney_tunes_cartoons_s3_e3a_claude_cat_2_by_giuseppedirosso_dfweppr.jpg

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/fb/7f/2d/fb7f2d1a943bd7d9000f44430cbd04a6--merrie-melodies-claude.jpg

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/F5S_dRmOzRc/maxresdefault.jpg

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/wabbit/images/f/f5/Claudecat.png/revision/latest?cb=20190211143000

Can you guess Claude Cat's (Looney Tunes) realistic phenotype and genotype for his various different character designs?

Absolutely! Tragically only the third and fourth link seem to work for me, but I can give my best guess/interpretation for each <3 Mind you I'm going on the images directly and not taking into account other factors like animation time, what they were originally inspired by, and any family that might've been present in any episodes. I'll only include the relevant genes for the genotype.

3 - I would interpret this image as either A: Black Non Agouti Amber with White, still in the yearish range of coat lightening, or B: Golden Shaded (Wideband aka Sunshine) Cinnamon Ticked Tabby with White. The latter is a bit of a stretch but just a fun alternate interpretation to use that brown-like color, with Cinnamon being used instead of Chocolate due to the reddish tone of the brown.
A: aa / B / eaea / o / TiaTia / wsw B: A / blbl / TiaTia / o / wb+wb+ or wb++wb++ / wsw

4 - I would interpret this image as Non Agouti Red (showing Barless Ticked Tabby)! I'm not exactly sure how I would interpret the brown on the face, short of saying a somatic mutation, but I also don't know if thats part of the scene only or the character design in this case.
aa / O / TiaTia

This is ofc how I would interpret the coats, or at least how I would spin it in the case of using them for redesigns or litter calculations if they were used.

[Spiritstar3]

@Spiritstar3 - Litters are super fun like that! Glad they sound cool!!

Love sable honestly its one of my favorite agouti types <3 It varies a lot in intensity from being super hard to tell to being super dark! Gorgeous stuff <3

Yee!! Tan is the base form, Red is the heterozygous form of Saturation (CNV) basically giving the Tan a red tint, which is why CNVcnv is here! Intensity is the I Locus, which independently dilutes tan to a paler color, making them either Cream (Ii) or White (ii). While geneticists know Reds and Cream/White are determined independently from eachother, we don't know how they interact due to lack of breeds that have BOTH those colors. But they are effectively both modifying how the Tan looks!

That is also why you'll get a dog that is diluted from Black to Blue, but still has a tan or even red coloration for the other color, since they are diluted independently from eachother! It can make for fun combinations in designs and can be seen best in the Doberman breed!

XD they really are fun.

Sable is honestly so pretty.


Maybe some day there will be a dog that has both.

That’s interesting.
Also, I’m on my phone and it’s really annoying to type on…so I’ll have to send more stuff on here when I get home.

[~HєуRєι~]

@Spiritstar3 - I'm sure there will be!! Real trick will be if anyone will gene test them properly and study it. Hopefully one day we'll have more answers </3

Absolutely feel free to at any time! If you need/want specific visuals dont hesitate to let me know as well, since I have a dog family tree editable in the works that i'll likely use to help at some point!

[Spiritstar3]

@Spiritstar3 - I'm sure there will be!! Real trick will be if anyone will gene test them properly and study it. Hopefully one day we'll have more answers </3

Absolutely feel free to at any time! If you need/want specific visuals dont hesitate to let me know as well, since I have a dog family tree editable in the works that i'll likely use to help at some point!

I hope we can get more answers some day.
That would be great.

Ooo, nice.
I’ll have to check that out when you get it posted.


I’m going to quickly post this
I have a question/request!

Forum/viewtopic.php?t=4665477

What could Wren and Sparrow produce?
Sparrow is meant to be lilac Merle, but looks maybe Fawn.

[~HєуRєι~]

I have a question/request!

Forum/viewtopic.php?t=4665477

What could Wren and Sparrow produce?
Sparrow is meant to be lilac Merle, but looks maybe Fawn.

Two things important to remember about Merle- #1. The color they are genetically is determined by the darkest color on them, not the lightest! #2. Merle cannot show on any reds of any kinds! Only Black, Liver, Cocoa, Blue, Isabella, and Lilac will show any merle and on any red it will be completely invisible. Remember that Cocoa and Lilac are restricted only to French Bulldogs as well, so you won't see it at all on any other breed! If you're ever having trouble determining the color of a merle, feel free to use my merle color guide <3

In this case: Wren would be a Liver Merle due to the brown tint of the spots themselves, and is a Standard grade merle at that due to the lightness of the diluted parts of the coat. You can see more about the complexities of merle and of double merle in these guides.

Wren: Dominant Black with Pseudo Irish
BB / dpp / KbKb / mm / SSp
Sparrow: Dominant Liver Merle with Extreme Piebald
bb / dpp / KbKb / Mm / SpSw
Puppy Result:All puppies are Black based carrying Liver! They are also solid as neither parent shows any agouti and is presumably both dominant black.
25% of puppies will have Standard merle, the rest are solid colored.
All puppies have white! 25% have Wren's level of white, 50% have between Wren and Sparrow's white, 25% have Sparrow's white or higher and are at risk of deafness!
25% of puppies have drop (floppy) ears, 50% have cocked ears, 25% have perked ears!

[Spiritstar3]

I have a question/request!

Forum/viewtopic.php?t=4665477

What could Wren and Sparrow produce?
Sparrow is meant to be lilac Merle, but looks maybe Fawn.

Two things important to remember about Merle- #1. The color they are genetically is determined by the darkest color on them, not the lightest! #2. Merle cannot show on any reds of any kinds! Only Black, Liver, Cocoa, Blue, Isabella, and Lilac will show any merle and on any red it will be completely invisible. Remember that Cocoa and Lilac are restricted only to French Bulldogs as well, so you won't see it at all on any other breed! If you're ever having trouble determining the color of a merle, feel free to use my merle color guide <3

In this case: Wren would be a Liver Merle due to the brown tint of the spots themselves, and is a Standard grade merle at that due to the lightness of the diluted parts of the coat. You can see more about the complexities of merle and of double merle in these guides.

Ah, kay.
What’s red Merle, then? Is it actually red?
Also I’ve definitely found a lilac Merle herding dog puppy, but i guess the Google images, or who ever posted those pictures could have been lying, or was just misinformed.

Kay Kay. Thank you.
Fun fact: I originally posted Sparrow on someone’s lines, and I think I was thinking about cookies.
That x why he/they came out looking like that.

Wren: Dominant Black with Pseudo Irish
BB / dpp / KbKb / mm / SSp
Sparrow: Dominant Liver Merle with Extreme Piebald
bb / dpp / KbKb / Mm / SpSw
Puppy Result:All puppies are Black based carrying Liver! They are also solid as neither parent shows any agouti and is presumably both dominant black.
25% of puppies will have Standard merle, the rest are solid colored.
All puppies have white! 25% have Wren's level of white, 50% have between Wren and Sparrow's white, 25% have Sparrow's white or higher and are at risk of deafness!
25% of puppies have drop (floppy) ears, 50% have cocked ears, 25% have perked ears!

(I actually was going to ask if you wanted me to make up colors for Sparrow’s parents. I was thinking one could have been black, so Sparrow carries/has black genetics.)

👍🏻
(Although, neither of them has drop or perked ears. It might be hard to tell since the lines are all so small since I put so many dogs.)