Do You Ride Horses? V.4

[Hime]

@Horse-girl123: Congratulations, that sounds like a amazing opportunity even though it's probably going to be a big change as well. But I admit I had to google that person. XD
We are doing okay-ish, bit of ups and downs, but mostly okay. Sorry, I don't remember when you've last been on, but yeah, Heta had a foal last year and also one in 2013. So two babies. ^^

@the captain: No, that really doesn't sound like pregnant mare behavior. From what I've experienced they can get very sluggish and slow in their late pregnancy months, but they generally then just don't want to move due the belly being huge and not really protest it. Though some might still have their energy all the way to foaling. But before the belly gets very big and heavy there's usually very little change in behavior and if there is, then it's usually to more calmer direction due the hormones. They can how ever be touchy with their bellies and other places, so techincally she could be reacting to leg cues if they are very strong. Each mare is of course individual.
How long have they had the horses? Sometimes rescue horses can change after gaining more strenght and kinda finding their attitude and personality again, if they came from less then nice conditions that is(which I assume they have as they needed to gain weight). Bringing out a vet is not a bad idea anyway, since there might be also something else going on and the pregnancy is still an option for rescue horse (though unless you live in Australia/NZ I think the due date won't be until next year). Though since she's still willing to move when someone leads her, I would lean more towards training issue than something actually being wrong. Does she do that with different riders or with just one or two people? If multiple people ride her that is.

[*~GECKO~*]

Hi there!
I'm Luna, a fellow equestrian. I'm a teen girl who loves riding horses, though I don't exactly own one yet. I'd say I'm probably Intermediate level, like we've started loping, etc. but I'm not sure what level you'd call it. I'm a Western rider.

I was just having a debate today who said that riding horses was cruel. I would love to copy/paste it here, but it's long and would look too junky. So, let me summarize it, paragraph by paragraph.
I was saying how you can't judge by just one rider, one horse, one discipline, one way of training horses. Millions of riders; majority aren't good, but not all. Millions of horses; different personality. Different ways of training horses.
I'm pretty sure y'all know the difference between breaking and whispering. If you don't, it's okay and I will gladly explain.

Next.
Spurs and whips. What are your views on using them? In my opinion, they're okay to use to certain extend. I don't agree with the idea of cutting your horse with the whips or stabbing horses with spurs from over-use. I do agree with it, though, if your mount is distracted. Like sleepy or something. And though I'd rather do what the instructor says and keep giving your horse commands it doesn't expect, sometimes it may be needed. Overuse of whips and spurs can be as bad as overuse from the bit. We all know how to overuse a bit, right?
In other words, whip too hard and you'll cut your horse.
Dig in with those spurs too hard and you'll cut your horse.
Yank those reigns and the bit could cause damage to your horse's mouth.
Also, by riding them, are we enslaving them? I don't think so, I just want to know what the equestrian community believes.
Also, is riding "brutality"? The person I had the debate with, who I won't mention, said that riding is brutal and how you don't need to ride a horse to exercise it.

Please share with me your views!

[Livid-Silver]

@Hime; She is a very happy mare, will have to see if she still feels the same way in a few months I'm just so pleased with how she's handled it all and the condition she's in. She's just kept her weight and muscle so well. I was a bit worried about that, only because when she was in work she needed a decent amount of feed to keep her weight on. I think the better quality pasture really made a difference.
Apparently its not an uncommon problem in foals. D had seen it before in a few of his, but none of them were as bad has he was on that first day. Feykja must have straighten up quick, cause I didn't even notice it in the photos you posted way back when she was first born He was only 3-4 days old in those photos, so there's still heaps of time for him to sort himself out. I'm itching to get back up there though; playing with foals is far more fun than studying for exams Got the last one tomorrow and then I am free to do as many horsey things as I want =D

That's very odd about that mare/stallion combo though. Genetics is a funny fickle thing, so I don't suppose we'd ever be able to explain it all.

Least Heta sounds like she's feeling better. You might be lucky and it was just her shoes, or she's just strained something in turn out. Either way, hopefully it was just something minor and won't cause too many issues. I'm crossing my fingers she keeps improving and its not the bone spavin. The fact it acts up randomly, eh no thank you. Sounds like such a pain in the butt!
That makes sense about gaited horses and lameness. I'd just never really thought about it before lol I'd imagine that picking lameness in those that can't trot would be extremely difficult!
I'd imagine moving back to L's would be easier, since it is way more familiar to her than the new barn. Especially since she's been there for so long, I'd expect she'd fall back into the routine pretty quickly.

@Horse-girl123; That's pretty exciting! How did your ride go yesterday?

@the captain; I agree with Hime, that doesn't sound like typical pregnant mare behaviour. How long have they had the mare? Was there any chance she was exposed to a stallion before they bought her? If the others are supposedly geldings, have they been checked to ensure they aren't rigs? Has there been any udder development in the mare? Having a big belly (especially in a draft horse) is not indicative of pregnancy. Mares don't typically get a huge belly until they are almost ready to foal, as the majority of the foal's growth occurs in the last 3 months. When they do get big, they typically get wide through their flanks and don't get a 'dropped' belly until just before foaling. In saying that, there are always exceptions to the rules. I've seen some mares that don't even look pregnant drop foals and geldings who look like they could pop at any second But with the information who've provided, I'm leaning towards a training issue at this point. However, I still would have a vet out and have her palpated/ultrasounded just to double check and make sure there is nothing else going on in her reproductive system. It could be something as simple as her coming into season and being a little crabby about it, or it might be something more.

@Luna; Hi Luna and welcome to the thread! Like with anything, there is always going to be opposing views However, I think the greatest danger with whips/spurs/bits is misuse by uneducated or careless riders. The equipment in itself is not cruel, but it can easily become cruel when it is used by a poor handler. I have used a whip and spurs on my horses before, most recently my young clydie x who I broke in earlier this year. He was being a bit sluggish and behind my leg, but I didn't want to nag him and give him reason to ignore my leg hence using the spurs. However, the ones I had (just general blunt ended spurs, nothing fancy) where too strong for him and he was kick out at my leg, despite the spurs being used gently. I swapped him over to a set of roller spurs I've borrowed from my instructor and he is happy as larry. So in that particular case, the original set of spurs were too much for the horse, where as my TB could not care less. Another example was earlier when I was breaking him, we start them in a tom thumb snaffle (not the western one, and english snaffle like this) but he began head tossing and backing off the bridle. Again, the bit was too strong for him, even though it was a snaffle and I am usually fairly quiet with my hands (can't be perfect all the time, but I wasn't reefing him in the mouth). Solution? Swap him into an double jointed eggbutt which sits stiller in his mouth, resulting in a happy horse I think with any type of equipment, it is so important for the rider to listen to the horse and figure out the combination which works for that horse-rider combination as well as remembering the damage that gear can cause if it is not used and treated with care. Overbitting/ giving rider spurs before they or their horse are ready, free use of the whip are extremely common problems, often used as 'band-aid solutions' to poor training. I really don't like seeing small kids riding tiny show-jumpers in pelhams with a single rein, holding on for dear life because the pony won't stop, putting a 4yo who has 12 months of training into a double bridle because 'he's heavy in the hand' or children riding in double bridles for the show ring because it is 'traditional' and they won't have a chance of placing without it. Any piece of gear can be abusive when it is misused, so it is the persons responsibility to educate themselves on the correct use and ensure that they and their horse are ready to step up- 'earn their spurs' so to speak.
On the 'riding is brutal' point, I think that really comes down to your own personal ethics and views. I don't personally believe that, but I do think that some people can cause riding to become brutal and abusive. There are plenty of videos online to prove that point. I don't think riding has a detrimental effect on the horses, so long as it is done with care and you're not running the horse into the ground or engaging in other abusive behaviors (over use of whip/spurs/bit ect. I'm sure you get the point).
Ethics is certainly a complicated issue and I'm sure you could discuss it for hours lol

[steve rogers.]

Hey friends!
My friend and her daughter rescued three kill own horses: an Arabian/TB mix (we think), a Belgian? mix, and a OTTB. They're all gaining weight and muscle so quickly and doing really well getting back into work. Except for the draft, the mare (of course). She was great at first (save trying to kick me a few times, which we remedied with groundwork) and we even put my brother on her, whose practically never ridden, and she did great.
Well, now she's changed drastically. With or without a saddle, she crowhops when asked to move at all, and will only do any sort of riding when another person walks infront of her and leads the way. Her stomach is HUGE, so we're going to get her tested for pregnancy. Does anyone have experience with pregnant mares, and does this mare sound like she may be pregnant? Thanks!

she could have a ulcer?


@luna
i used a whip as a training tool, if my horse needs an extra oomph, same with spurs, as long as you're using them correctly i think theyre fine
my ottb (unless she's fresh or in heat) needs a whip sometimes

[*~GECKO~*]

@Amy, yeah. I guess the fact that theyre vegan may have some effect tho my dad and brother are vegan and they have no problem with it. Some of the things vegans say about riding is super pathetic! That person said we wont see it because we are so determined to ride. -—-

(Will reply to @Epoch in a bit. My break is over

[Horse-girl123]

@Hime I remember her 2013 foal, wow it's been a long time, but didn't realize she had another baby. I'd love to see pictures of all of them!

@Amy Pond
It went really well! I made a bit of a fool of myself at first, whoops, and for sure thought he was going to say no right away. He had me on one of his young mares named Jelly. We took them into the field to trot a lap or so, he had me pick up the canter and jump a huge log. I have no cross country or dressage experience and I can't remember the last time I jumped on grass footing. Jelly and I nailed the distance to the jump and it felt amazing. After he took me on a hack around the farm, we did a lot of conditioning the youngsters at the trot and eventually jumped another big log on the trail (which I got left behind at, whoops) and finished back at the barn. I was so sure he was not going to want anything to do with me. I untacked, groomed Jelly and cleaned the tack before meeting him in his indoor. He offered me a working student position with him in Ocala, FL. I can't believe that a 2 time gold medalist Olympian wants ME to ride for him. I'm on cloud nine right now

[MoonfallTheFox]

Hi there!
I'm Luna, a fellow equestrian. I'm a teen girl who loves riding horses, though I don't exactly own one yet. I'd say I'm probably Intermediate level, like we've started loping, etc. but I'm not sure what level you'd call it. I'm a Western rider.

I was just having a debate today who said that riding horses was cruel. I would love to copy/paste it here, but it's long and would look too junky. So, let me summarize it, paragraph by paragraph.
I was saying how you can't judge by just one rider, one horse, one discipline, one way of training horses. Millions of riders; majority aren't good, but not all. Millions of horses; different personality. Different ways of training horses.
I'm pretty sure y'all know the difference between breaking and whispering. If you don't, it's okay and I will gladly explain.

Next.
Spurs and whips. What are your views on using them? In my opinion, they're okay to use to certain extend. I don't agree with the idea of cutting your horse with the whips or stabbing horses with spurs from over-use. I do agree with it, though, if your mount is distracted. Like sleepy or something. And though I'd rather do what the instructor says and keep giving your horse commands it doesn't expect, sometimes it may be needed. Overuse of whips and spurs can be as bad as overuse from the bit. We all know how to overuse a bit, right?
In other words, whip too hard and you'll cut your horse.
Dig in with those spurs too hard and you'll cut your horse.
Yank those reigns and the bit could cause damage to your horse's mouth.
Also, by riding them, are we enslaving them? I don't think so, I just want to know what the equestrian community believes.
Also, is riding "brutality"? The person I had the debate with, who I won't mention, said that riding is brutal and how you don't need to ride a horse to exercise it.

Please share with me your views!

Anything can be misused. You can abuse a horse with your hand, or with a whip or a bit or a pair of spurs.

I have been unfortunate enough to meet people who believe riding is the enslavement of a horse. I don't believe that to be true. A horse weighs a thousand or more pounds. He will only do what he wants to do, and he can kill a man in a second. We can train them, and encourage them to carry us around on their backs, but if they really didn't care to, do you think they would? Why would my old gelding let me sit upon him with no bit, no bridle, no saddle, no whip, if he was a slave? Don't you think he would get rid of me then, knowing he could, that I had no control but a strap of thin leather on his nose? Why do they walk to us and willingly put their heads into halters and bridles and open their mouths for the bit and drop their heads for you to put the earpiece on if they are not willing to be your partner?

Working with a horse is a partnership to me and I think my horses see it the same way. They love me and trust me as a friend on the ground, a companion, and they let me sit on their back, in their most vulnerable spot, because they know I do not want to hurt them. They have a choice. Never believe a horse has no choice or they will prove they do indeed have a choice and they will stuff you off into a fence and break your bones.


Everything we put on a horse is a tool. A human has to use the tool, make it work. WE control what it does, how much it impacts the horse and whether it is in fact cruel. Any bit can be cruel, even the mildest one, if you yank on it hard enough. Any spurs will leave a mark if you dig them in far enough, and any whip can cut if you beat them with it. That is not how they are intended to be used. That is where the line is.

I am not inherently against the use of any tool. I've got opinions, and I won't use certain ones on my horses, but it is the right of the owner to use the tools they choose. And it is on them to use them wisely.

[steve rogers.]

i think it all depends on your horse as well, some work better without aids, and with aids, i dont agree with calling them 'tools' for example, dressage whips are usually used as an extended arm

[*~GECKO~*]

@epoch, yes, and that was practically one of the whole points of my message. They got so angry that they foed me and I didn't have a chance to say anything else, but I could have made the point. But then again, that's just beside the point for this discussion. I think if they saw our "debate" from a non-bias point of view they would have gotten it. I did understand some of the things they said and I am against racing for sure. Young horses are broken - not training "broken" - at young ages due to over-racing. Kinda like whips and spurs and bits, etc.

@Moonfall, again, I do agree. Like for me, horse sports are something I don't like. Once we were at a jump show, and you know those jumps where, it's like a dip and then there's a jump when it starts inclining? We saw a horse fail at that one once, they lost their balance or something and the rider fell over the horse's neck. That's why jumping is bad. Both the horse and rider are put into risk.
I tried to explain that by riding, you're forming a unity between you and the horse, etc.

And this next argument is funny.
Me: Owning a horse is kinda like raising a child, in "adult" terms. If they're sluggish and they're supposed to do something, some people just might slap em or something to wake them up, etc.
Them: Yeah but I don't sit on my child and whip him.
That's how horses feel when they're being ridden. We would feel like a KITTEN on their backs!
I'm sorry for bringing this to the chat. I just needed to vent with fellow equestrians to see what the big opinion is ^*^

[MoonfallTheFox]

@epoch, yes, and that was practically one of the whole points of my message. They got so angry that they foed me and I didn't have a chance to say anything else, but I could have made the point. But then again, that's just beside the point for this discussion. I think if they saw our "debate" from a non-bias point of view they would have gotten it. I did understand some of the things they said and I am against racing for sure. Young horses are broken - not training "broken" - at young ages due to over-racing. Kinda like whips and spurs and bits, etc.

@Moonfall, again, I do agree. Like for me, horse sports are something I don't like. Once we were at a jump show, and you know those jumps where, it's like a dip and then there's a jump when it starts inclining? We saw a horse fail at that one once, they lost their balance or something and the rider fell over the horse's neck. That's why jumping is bad. Both the horse and rider are put into risk.
I tried to explain that by riding, you're forming a unity between you and the horse, etc.

And this next argument is funny.
Me: Owning a horse is kinda like raising a child, in "adult" terms. If they're sluggish and they're supposed to do something, some people just might slap em or something to wake them up, etc.
Them: Yeah but I don't sit on my child and whip him.
That's how horses feel when they're being ridden. We would feel like a KITTEN on their backs!
I'm sorry for bringing this to the chat. I just needed to vent with fellow equestrians to see what the big opinion is ^*^

I'm a jumper and I used to compete heavily. So I don't really agree there. My horse loved it. He lit up when we got on the course. Yeah it's got some risk to it, some sports are pretty dangerous for both horse and rider, but any sport has risk- football players get hurt all the time. My horse was never -made- to perform. He performed on his own. He got so riled in the cross country start gate he often reared up before the countdown was over, then booked it out of there as fast as he could go. He couldn't wait to get going, and he threw his heart and soul into his sport.

Now I am not competing currently, my gelding retired in old age and my other horse is just a youngster learning to be ridden, but it doesn't change how I feel about it. Spider, my filly, will choose her path. I will help her find a sport she likes as much as Sterling loved to jump and we'll do it together.