I used to feed my doggy poison. :D

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Re: I used to feed my doggy poison. :D

Postby Cardinal » Thu May 17, 2012 7:47 pm

Jazi wrote:EVO, Herring and Salmon

Herring, Salmon Meal, Salmon, Herring Meal, Peas, Eggs, Herring Oil, Pea Fiber, Natural Flavor, Apples, Sunflower Oil, Carrots, Cottage Cheese, Dried Chicory Root, DL-Methionine, taurine, Vitamins (Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin E Supplement, Betaine Hydrochloride, Niacin Supplement, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Thiamine Mononitrate, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex, Riboflavin Supplement, Beta Carotene, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Biotin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Folic Acid), Minerals (Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Calcium Iodate), Direct Fed Microbials (Dried Lactobacillus acidophilus Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus casei Fermentation Product, Dried Enterococcus faecium Fermentation Product)




This is what I feed my cat now, along with the TotW that I'm weaning her back off of. Now that my paychecks are increasing and after hearing that feeding raw isn't too big of a jump in price from nice kibble, I'm wondering... how do you raw feeders suggest I switch her over? Sadly the cats in my family have never gotten raw food (unless you count what they stole from the dogs) aside from one of my past cats who I fed lightly cooked unseasoned turkey out of desperation because she wasn't eating (colon cancer, we lost her a few months later :[ ), so I'm not sure how to go about convincing Saffy that she should eat something like that. The dogs took to it right away, being dogs that already were fed leftover meats it wasn't that hard to switch them to the venison.

Just for kicks I tried giving her one of the mice that Quetzal had refused (frozen/thawed, fed a high quality diet and kept in a sterile environment before being killed, essentially the same as a whole prey model), just to see if she would do anything with it. She poked it, picked it up by the tail and set it back down, and then ignored it. It worries me because she was previously an outdoor cat that hunted her meals (previous family didn't feed her) and I was expecting her instincts to kick in, though it could have been because it was already dead and not moving like she'd expect them to. So what now? What do you do to a stubborn switcher? Unlike most dogs, cats will starve themselves to death if they don't think their food is tasty enough for their attention.

I know she likes kibble and canned with fish ingredients the most, won't eat the processed pink goop canned food (don't blame her) but will eat the solid chunks. When she has an upset stomach from the heat I give her chunky canned food (EVO), a half teaspoon of milk, and a pinch of rice for fiber. Recently though I've switched the milk/rice additions with a raw egg; she likes that better and I don't have to worry over whether the few pieces of rice will stress her tummy. Otherwise she just gets her normal kibble.


I give thee sushi! http://www.saddogsushi.com/Menu.html

Anyways.. Ground is probably going to be your best bet for a bit. ;D Cats in my experience need to be 'weaned' on to it because they can be picky suckers! You can always try chicken breast chunks cooked one night. Lightly cooked the next.. skin only cooked the next..>_> Or not that quickly but you get the point. Also, do your best to shred it into small pieces.

My cats will take ground so much more readily then bone-in meats. Raw eggs are also a favorite.
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Re: I used to feed my doggy poison. :D

Postby Jazi » Thu May 17, 2012 8:36 pm

Ooo, that looks interesting, and also looks like I'll need to do some investigating. While I can't eat fish, I can be around it, so I figured if all else fails I'll just buy some fish and throw it at her xD Now I see that people are mindful of animals that like fishy things and I can look into that instead.

I did forget to mention, a buddy of mine gives her cats one sardine every two weeks and gave Saffron one once. Unlike the poor ignored mouse Saffy went to town and picked the thing clean. I haven't tried sardines again because I wasn't sure about salt, preservative, and mercury contents since I don't eat fish myself, but if that's an acceptable treat once or twice a month I can certainly start doing that until I figure out how to fully convert her off of kibble

I know that there's a huge debate with cats on whether or not kibble, regardless of quality, is the best for cats being as they're desert mammals and prefer to absorb their liquids through the things they eat, and honestly I'd rather have more inconvenience during suppertime than a cat with kidney problems and constantly struggling with obesity. Luckily the EVO's kept her slim at 9lbs, could be 8-8.5, which doesn't sound like much but on such a small frame it makes an impact. When she was on One Beyond she was about 11lbs and even though I fed her the exact same amount of kibble as I do now, the vet was fussing at me to make sure she didn't gain any more. When I first got her at the Humane League she was actually underweight at just over 6lbs due to refusing her Science Diet (though whether it was taste or stress remains unknown, I knew SD was crap and got her on something better asap) so she's come a long way in the past two years :3
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Re: I used to feed my doggy poison. :D

Postby IAmLink » Fri May 18, 2012 1:11 am

I'm gonna go ahead and stick this in here for anyone with raw diet related questions. I originally wrote this to Demotivated-bear, who then pasted this again in another raw related topic, so now it's here too! XD

Demotivated_bear wrote:I made a thread about raw feeding a while ago and it got locked, but IAmLink pmed with a lot of information. I figured I post my questions and her answers here for you, OPP.
My questions wrote:1. What is Feeding Raw all about?
2. Why should I feed a raw diet?
3. What have people have reported? What changes, if any, have been seen in your dogs?
4. Why is commercial dog food not good for my dog?
5. How will I know how much to feed Jake?
6. I've read some about feeding chicken. Aren't chicken bones dangerous?
7. How about pre-packaged raw foods?
8. Should I grind the bones?
9. What, if any, supplements should I feed?
10. What about bacteria on raw chicken?
11. Where can I buy this stuff?
12. What is the process for switching from kibble to raw?
13. What can I expect for the first few weeks?
14. Where should I feed Jake, since I'm sure a raw diet will be messy?
15. How often do I feed?
16. How much does it cost, both at first and in the long run?


If other people have questions I haven't listed, feel free to post them here. However, I do not want anyone fighting. I am seriously considering switching my dog, and want informed answers, preferably from people who have/do feed raw. Thank you!



IAmLink wrote:Here are the answers to your questions:

1. Feeding Raw is basically feeding your dog a diet of raw meat, organs, and bone; without fruits, vegetables, or grains.

2. Whole, raw foods are what dogs are designed to eat. They are carnivores and therefore do not need to eat fruits, vegetables, and grains. A raw diet will also likely give your dog a better life. These benefits include: a healthier and shinier coat, fewer illnesses, clean teeth and fresh breath, higher amounts of energy, healthier vet check-ups, and also smaller, more compact, and faster degradable stools...your dog will also have to poop less often.

3. A lot of issues have become better and/or entirely disappeared on a raw diet. These include skin issues, digestive issues, eye issues, etc. And pretty much everything else said in question 2

4. Commerical dog food is full of fillers and grains. Grains are NOT appropriate for a dog's diet and is the root of most allergies in dogs. Kibble is also cooked at very high temperatures; cooking destroys most nutritional value and breaks down the proteins and amino acids in meats. All this processing makes it even harder for dogs to digest this kind of food.

5. This is where it can get a little tricky. Sometimes, you as the owner, know best how much your dog needs. However, there is also a system to figure this out. Your dogs meals should consist of 80% meat, 10% organs, and 10% bone. And when it comes to organs, liver should make up 50% of all organs given, the other 50% should be any other type of organs. Organs are anything that secretes which include spleen, kidney, brain, etc. Things that are NOT organs but are commonly mistaken as are heart, lung, stomach, and tripe: these are all considered meat. How much to feed YOUR individual dog takes a bit of calculating. There are also online calculators for this too. Basically, you want to feed your dog 1.5% of body weight for slight weight loss, 2.0%-3.0% body weight for maintenance, and 3.5% body weight for slight weight gain. This is usually the hardest part to figure out. There are also pre-made, ground raws that you can use that have all the pieces included (meat, organs, and bone) but I will come back to that in a bit. Here's a good online calculator: http://www.raw4dogs.com/calculate.htm
Here is also an awesome spreadsheet that shows what your dog will require in meat, organs, and bone (you can either open or save the file): http://www.netrophic.com/misc/NewPerson ... gGuide.xls

6.Not at all! Chicken bones are actually very soft bones. The only bones you do NOT want to feed are weight bearing bones. This includes beef bones and sometimes pork bones because they can possibly chip your dogs teeth. However, always remember, NEVER give your dog cooked bones. There is a lot of misconcenption about raw vs. cooked bones. Cooked bones are the dangerous ones because they will splinter. Raw bones DO NOT splinter and are very good for cleaning your dogs teeth as well as being an important part of a raw diet.

7.Back to pre-made raw foods. I actually started out using a kind like this. I went with Darwin's Raw because it's quite a bit cheeper than other pre-made raws. This is a good way to start out, but should you choose to stay with ground raw, you should also supplement your dogs diet with stuff like chicken and/or turkey necks so that it can help in the teeth cleaning process. Ground raw is not going to do much with cleaning your dogs teeth. Another good place to get ground raw is called My Pet Carnivore. They have lots of meat varieties and most are in ground form, and their ground is "course ground". But the best kind of raw to feed is called prey model raw. This means to feed whole pieces of meat. This is the closest to feeding your dog a natural diet because it requires them to work their jaw muscles and have clean teeth. It is also easier to do the meat/organ/bone ratio this way. With prey model, make sure you do NOT cut pieces into small chunks. This is an invitation for choking, just let your dog do what he does naturally =)

8. Definitely not. Your dogs teeth are stronger than you think, and definitely stronger than ours. Chewing and cracking through bones (albeit it is a bit unsettling the first time you hear it, lol) is important for your dog to strengthen his jaw muscles and helps to clean teeth and breath (once again).

9. None, really. A raw diet is meant to be a complete diet for your dogs. Because, once again, they are carnivores and do not require anything else for the most part. I do, however, add salmon oil to my dog's food because she tends to have some dandruff, and that clears it right up. But she already had skin issues; you really only need supplements if there is something wrong with your dog's health. The only other "supplement" I use is raw eggs, one twice a week.

10. That dogs can get salmonilla and other diseases as easily as we can is a myth. Sure, there have been cases of it, but it is so rare that the cases are few and very far between. Most times when this has happened, is because someone let the raw meat get warm, grown bacteria, and then fed it to their dog. The important thing to remember is to keep the food frozen until you want to use it. Most raw food has a freezer life of 9 months, a fridge shelf-life of 2-3 days, and, if you don't think you will use all that has been thawed, it is completely ok to re-freeze food for your dog. We humans do not usually re-freeze our food because we do not like the texture of re-frozen food. Also, when it comes to bacteria, dogs have a much shorter and more acidic digestive tract than humans; therefore, the food does not sit in the dogs body long enough to fester and grow bacteria.

11. Lots of places =). You can buy in local dog food stores in the freezer isle. But for the best kind of variety of meats, online is sometimes the best way. As stated before, some good places for prey model and ground are My Pet Carnivore and Hare Today. Darwin's Raw is good for just pre-made raw. There are lots of others as well. Just look around and see what you find =). It also depends on where you live, too. You can also buy regular, human food from a grocery store, but you need to make sure the meat is not enhanced nor has any extras in it to preserve it (not good for dogs). Some pre-mades that you can find in animal food stores include Primal and Nature's Variety. However, these can sometimes be a bit more expensive.

12. The key to switching is to take it slow. I was lucky because my dog has a stomach o steel . But you should take about 1-2 weeks to switch your dogs over. It all depends on how well your dogs take to it. Imagine going from eating someting full of grains and fillers, to straight protein, it can take a toll on your dog! So go slow and steady. Also, start out with an easy meat like chicken, which is usually the best. Do not start on a new protien until your dogs are completely on raw. And always introduce a new protien slowly as well, just to be sure. Some good, lean meats (after chicken) are turkey, rabbit, goat, and pork. Just remember what I said about pork bones . Some dogs, mine included, are not even fazed by a new meat, but yours may be different. Also, your dogs are likely to have loose stool on the switch over. If that happens, just cut back a bit on the raw. If they seem to be unfazed by the raw meat, then use a bit more and try to switch a bit faster.

13. Most already answered in last question. You will not likely see changes in coat and poop for about a month. But, once again, it all depends on the individual dog.

14. You can do this outside, if you have a fenced yard, or inside on some towels. Because you have two, it might be a good idea to feed seperately, but only you know your dogs and how they will act. If you choose to do inside on towels, you may need to train your dogs to stay on the towels. For me, I use towels, but I sit right next to my dog while she eats, mostly because I have to hang on to whatever she is eating because she can be a gulper and I need to make sure she doesn't eat anything whole. Also, this is very important, NEVER leave your dog alone with a raw hunk of meat. You need to be there to make sure they don't try to swallow it whole and risk choking. Some dogs are meticulous and take their time, but other get overly excited and try to eat as fast as possible.

15. I do twice a day. But that's all up to you. Some people will let their dogs eat a lot for one meal, and then on the second meal they only eat a little bit, so as to make up for eating so much on the last meal. Two meals a day is the best way to go with this kind of diet so they don't eat too much at once.

16. It all depends on where you get it from and how much your dogs eat. For me, I have a Shiba Inu which is a small-medium dog, and I recently just got in an order of 40 pounds from My Pet Carnivore, which will likely last me for AT LEAST 6 months or even longer, and it cost me about $145 including shipping. But, once again, it all depends on your situation, where you get your food, and how much your dogs will eat.


If anyone else has any other raw specific related questions, feel free to ask! ^^

Lupen-to answer your specific questions; I don't think that you'll have too much of a problem getting your dog to eat organs. Some dogs turn their nose up at them in the beginning, but once they taste organs, they tend to love them :3
However, if you do have a problem, you could always cut it up into small pieces and "hide" it among the other food to see if your dog will eat it.

Just remember that, when it comes to organs (and as stated above) you must feed the correct amount. If you are going to get into feeding organs, it may just be best to switch entirely to a raw diet. There are a couple charts and calculators above to figure out correct portion sizes and what your individual dog needs when it comes to all the different parts of a raw diet; meat, organs, and bone.

Jazi-I know that My Pet Carnivore sells ground meat/organ/bone mixes that are fine-ground for cats/puppies/ferrets etc. Maybe Saffy would like something all mushed up as a starter?

I've never put a cat on a raw diet before, though I have no doubt that it must be difficult. Any future cats I do own I seriously plan to also have on full raw diets. (My house is currently full of foster cats, but I don't have one of my own. Though, completely off-topic here, there is a little white deaf kitten at the shelter that is so stinkin cute I can't seem to stay away from him!! DX)
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Re: I used to feed my doggy poison. :D

Postby Jazi » Fri May 18, 2012 5:46 am

It's only hard to switch their diets because they're naturally very picky and will go as far as picking out all of a certain size, shape, or color kibble and refusing to eat the rest, even when left for several days. They're one of the few mammals where it doesn't matter how hungry they are, if they don't think they want to eat it they simply won't. Going "you have food, eat that!" might work on a dog, but if a cat's decided to turn up it's nose you're going to have to get creative to convince them otherwise. They're also one of the few mammals that will imprint on one thing if you feed it to them without variety for too long, which is how you have house cats "addicted" to kibble (because they no longer recognize meat and canned goop as food) and barn cats that don't know what to do with dry pellets (because they're used to hunting for their food and don't recognize processed kibble as something tasty).

I'm at work, but I checked out My Pet Carnivore during my breaks and I really like those prices! Did some figuring in my head from the price estimate you gave, and if I fed Saff the same amount of food I'd have a 7-8 month supply that would cost me about $14 every month compared to the $11 kibble costs me (2 months supply of EVO is $22 + shipping). Definitely starting sooner whenever I get another cat. I think I might buy some of the whole ground fish and start feeding her that as her morning meal, and feeding kibble as the evening meal until she can eat it all day.
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Re: I used to feed my doggy poison. :D

Postby IAmLink » Fri May 18, 2012 6:35 am

Lol, reminds me of Sapphire when she was still alive. She was the pickiest thing and wouldn't touch most foods. I had to keep changing her food over and over again until I found something she liked (she would only eat dry kibble, she wouldn't touch the canned slop and this was before I knew about raw, lol). And even then, after a few months or so of one kind of food, she'd get tired of it and then I'd have to find something new just to get her to eat XD
The least I can say is that she never got fat *shrugs*

Yep :3 That's why I love MPC, those prices are just awesome!! They've got stuff like whole beef gullets for less than 2 bucks a piece XD
Sooo much different from other online sites. That and they just recently lowered their shipping rates, though their packaging doesn't suffer from it, my stuff always arrives still frozen ^^ And I love their variety! I also buy some stuff from another online site called Hare Today because they have whole pieces of fowel which MPC does not have. Hare Today also sells whole animals with fur/feathers like rabbits, birds, mice, etc.

I really wish MPC would hurry up and restock their rabbit, I really need to reorder!
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Re: I used to feed my doggy poison. :D

Postby Lupen » Fri May 18, 2012 11:26 am

IAmLink wrote:

Lupen-to answer your specific questions; I don't think that you'll have too much of a problem getting your dog to eat organs. Some dogs turn their nose up at them in the beginning, but once they taste organs, they tend to love them :3
However, if you do have a problem, you could always cut it up into small pieces and "hide" it among the other food to see if your dog will eat it.

Just remember that, when it comes to organs (and as stated above) you must feed the correct amount. If you are going to get into feeding organs, it may just be best to switch entirely to a raw diet. There are a couple charts and calculators above to figure out correct portion sizes and what your individual dog needs when it comes to all the different parts of a raw diet; meat, organs, and bone.




Hmm.. I was looking at the My pet carnivore website you guys were talking about and I think we can actually afford a raw diet, not just a partial. Their prices seem pretty reasonable, and I'm sure Rylee will feel so much better eating raw. I'm sure she'd love some of those chicken necks and feet. :P

And thanks again for all of the info, it's helped a lot and I really appreciate it ^^ I don't really need to start her on organs and all that for a few weeks though, right? If I do end up doing strictly raw meat. Going off of the prey model diet anyways, which I just finished reading... I guess I'll just have to wait and see if she actually enjoys them though... if not, hopefully cutting them up and "hiding them" will do the trick. Like I said, she's extremely picky. All of my past dogs would eat anything, but not her lol.
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Re: I used to feed my doggy poison. :D

Postby IAmLink » Fri May 18, 2012 12:36 pm

That's awesome that you're considering going for a full raw diet ^^ Just remember that this kind of diet is a learning process and you will likely make a few mistakes and, most importantly, you never stop learning. But that's part of the fun! XD

And nope :3 You don't need to start feeding organs right away. It takes an incredibly long time for nutrient deficiencies to affect a dog, so you have plenty of time to switch your dog(s) over to a raw diet. It is, in fact, better to get your dog completely on eating raw meat before you introduce the organs :3

Just don't forget a scale for measuring out your organs when you do start to feed them ^^

You can also check out this site:
http://dogster.com/forums/

This forum is AWESOME! I learned a great deal off of here from a lot of other raw feeders on the raw forum. This site also has mostly adults on it, so it's great to get advice from people that have been feeding raw for up to 10 or more years. You create an account for your dog on this site as well :3
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Re: I used to feed my doggy poison. :D

Postby Jazi » Fri May 18, 2012 1:05 pm

IAmLink wrote:Lol, reminds me of Sapphire when she was still alive. She was the pickiest thing and wouldn't touch most foods. I had to keep changing her food over and over again until I found something she liked (she would only eat dry kibble, she wouldn't touch the canned slop and this was before I knew about raw, lol). And even then, after a few months or so of one kind of food, she'd get tired of it and then I'd have to find something new just to get her to eat XD
The least I can say is that she never got fat *shrugs*

Yep :3 That's why I love MPC, those prices are just awesome!! They've got stuff like whole beef gullets for less than 2 bucks a piece XD
Sooo much different from other online sites. That and they just recently lowered their shipping rates, though their packaging doesn't suffer from it, my stuff always arrives still frozen ^^ And I love their variety! I also buy some stuff from another online site called Hare Today because they have whole pieces of fowel which MPC does not have. Hare Today also sells whole animals with fur/feathers like rabbits, birds, mice, etc.

I really wish MPC would hurry up and restock their rabbit, I really need to reorder!


Yea, that's all cat. You can get some that are really easy to switch back and forth but for the most part they are the pickiest little stinkers and will stay that way. Finding the right cat tree and litter box also takes some work for some truly stubborn cats. Saffy seems to be as much of a garbage disposal as any cat can be thankfully, which is what surprised me about her refusing the mouse >.> Luckily she's a fairly laidback cat that takes most things in stride, but you never know.

I'm impressed and wondering why people don't just buy their meat from places like these xD It's cheap and fresh, easily cooked and seasoned, so why not? Definitely starting out with these next paycheck. Now I do have a question about tripe. From my understanding it's the stomach lining of large herbivores and thus where a carnivore would get whatever plant matter they'd need (if any) as well since they'd eat the stomach but not all of the contents. My question is, while it counts as meat, do I need to include it specifically as a supplement? If it's 80% meat/10% bone/5% liver/5% other organs, where does tripe come in?

I'm thinking to possibly have an end goal of a mixed diet of fish, bird, herbivore to provide her with variety and plenty of nutrients, unless those meats all break down differently and should be fed separate.
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Re: I used to feed my doggy poison. :D

Postby IAmLink » Fri May 18, 2012 1:32 pm

Lol, I have had trouble with cats that were picky about cat litter XD

I know right? Lol, seems like an awesome deal to me! XD
And ya gotta love that all their meats come from free-range animals that are fed appropriate and nutritious diets for each and every one.

This article may clear up some of your questions :3
http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/the-stink-on-tripe/

I currently don't feed it that often, but the next order I make with MPC (which will hopefully be very soon) I am going to order a bunch to start feeding it once or twice a week. Some people on the forums I visit say that they will occasionally feed it for a whole meal.

I think that plan sounds fine :3 I try to at least keep rotating Okami between red and white meats, however I've got at least four of each kinds of meat (gotta love that variety! XD). I'm trying my hardest to get Okami to also eat fish, but now that she's on a raw diet she has suddenly decided to get picky on me! I just can't get her to eat her fish unless I cut it up into bite sized cubes, and then hand feed it to her. My dog is so fricken spoiled >.>
I think I will be going for the ground fish next time XD
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Re: I used to feed my doggy poison. :D

Postby Snowseph » Fri May 18, 2012 1:44 pm

Imzadi83 wrote:
Snow! wrote:Is there possibley a dog food that could make your dog not gain any weight? None of the dog food brands that you named were it. Only asking since, my dog, Buddy, is really thin. We give plenty of food to eat each day. o far we have had him for about 9 months. He was about 5 months when got him, he is a little over 1 year now, but he never gains anything at all. He is still thin, bout the same as when we got him. Could it possibly be the food. Im not sure what the brand is but it has the word 'soup' in it. Thank yoi



If it's Chicken Soup for the Pet Lover's Soul you need to be careful as they've had a recall of that due to salmonella. Here's an article explaining it. Though it doesn't sound like that's what's going on with your dog you still need to find out if they type of food you have has ben recalled.

Oh ya that's it. Sorry I missed that! >.<
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