animal rights vs animal welfare

[косатка]

@ julian

Releasing captive animals is very difficult. They have to be deemed releasable by the appropriate authorities, and animals must be placed in a release program. They have to be trained to be wild again! Raising all animals without human contact will greatly limit enrichment and research opportunities, so that isn't a viable way of going about it.
Not every facility has the means to do an extensive release program on their own, and the species has to be approved for release attempts. But facilities can work with other facilities in breeding programs, research, and educational outreach. Conservation is much more than just releasing.

Regardless of your view on cetacean captivity, SeaWorld cannot release their whales. They aren't even legally allowed to. The animals they have need to be deemed releasable. Some of their orcas, such as Corky and Ulises, have been in captivity for decades. Putting them in the ocean where they will be exposed to foreign pathogens, fluctuating water temperature, and in a very unfamiliar place is not the best idea. Just look at Keiko. He disappeared for a few weeks, then appeared in Norway allowing kids to ride on his back. There were unsuccessful attempts to integrate him into a wild pod, but he wanted to interact with people instead.
Release is a lot more complicated than you think it is.

The captive orca lifespan is a bit tricky. It is important to note that orca captivity started only about 60 years ago, and only in the past couple decades have they've been kept with success. There isn't enough data currently to say whether or not they live shorter lives than their wild counterparts. There are no recognized orca subspecies, only ecotypes, and most captive orcas in the US and Europe descend from Icelandic whales. They do not have the kind of "language" that we do, but they do have unique dialects. However, cetaceans can learn the calls of other species of cetaceans. I'm sure they can communicate with members of their own species just fine. And wild orca attacks have happened. Just pretty rare because people aren't out swimming with them as frequently.

But I totally agree that people shouldn't take animals out of the wild to be pets, and I couldn't agree more that animals in the wild need to remain wary of humans. It frustrates me to no end seeing people swim with wild cetaceans, for example!

[Ancient Frost]

i don't support (the majority of) zoos. they claim to be all about rehabilitation and release, but very few actually release their animals into the wild. with minimal personal human contact, there's no reason an animal which has been held in captivity for a time can't be released. unfortunately, zoos are money pits and only care about bringing humans in to gawk at and interact with the animals.

i also hate seaworld and any other place that keeps cetaceans captive. they absolutely cannot thrive and be happy, ever, in captivity. i'll talk about orcas specifically, but this goes for all cetaceans (orcas, dolphins, porpoises, whales), and seals and sea lions. in the wild, orcas' lifespans are anywhere from 30-80 years old. the average age of death of orcas at seaworld is 14. not to mention they often house different subspecies together which is stressful and severely dangerous because they do not speak the same language! and, the only reported attacks on humans by orcas have been in captivity. they refuse to release their orcas because they claim that they wouldn't survive in the wild. but they're wild animals to their core. their instincts are very strong. they would make it; seaworld just wants to make money.

I'm going to focus on this part of the argument in my reply. I feel like most zoos are actually very good. They provide educational opportunities for kids, have breeding programs to restabilize populations, and donate money to conservation efforts. Some, of course, are exceptions but they are fairly easy to spot. Second, Sea World is no good and many of the other places that keep cetaceans are also bad. Release for these is difficult but not impossible and many don't even try. So I sort of disagree but sort of agree. Everything else you said I liked but I felt like this needed to be addressed.

[minimire]

exploitation is the action or fact of treating someone unfairly in order to benefit from their work. animals in factory farms are being exploited. they are abused and tortured because of our greed and then slaughtered once they are no longer profitable.

how are factory farms a symbiotic relationship between livestock and humans? How do the animals benefit from factory farms? or animal circuses?

when we talk about animal rights, we are talking about their right to live. their basic right to live.

I stated I support animal welfare. How did you come to the conclusion that I support factory farming? No one here does.

Animals can't have the right to live. Animals eat other animals. We can't condemn a wolf for eating a deer, no matter how much you believe in that deer's "right to live". Does the deer's right to live suddenly disappear when a wolf attacks? Sometimes the population of certain animals may need to be reduced, or invasive species eradicated. And some people fail to thrive without meat. Giving animals a "right to live" can't work.

I plan to raise reindeer, rabbits, and chickens someday in my future. I will give them food, water, shelter, play, love, and safety. They will provide me with eggs, antlers, milk... and yes, occasionally meat and hide, but I will make sure they have a wonderful life worth living before their time comes. Call that what you will.

that's nature. what animal agriculture is far from natural. we bred these animals into existence and domesticated them. every animal should have the basic right to live. a deer was not bred to be slaughtered, unlike livestock. they should not be exploited for human benefits.

the academy of nutrition and dietetics agree and support that a plant based diet is healthy and nutritionally adequate for all stages of life.

is murder justified if the victim had a good life to life before their death?

[PARK]

that's nature. what animal agriculture is far from natural. we bred these animals into existence and domesticated them. every animal should have the basic right to live. a deer was not bred to be slaughtered, unlike livestock. they should not be exploited for human benefits.

the academy of nutrition and dietetics agree and support that a plant based diet is healthy and nutritionally adequate for all stages of life.

is murder justified if the victim had a good life to life before their death?

this is literally so ridiculous. i've said it before and i'll say it again: there are native people who rely on hunting to survive. animal rights and human rights can't coexist. use your brain.

other than that, i'm poor as hell and can't afford to live off a vegetarian/vegan diet. it's so damn expensive.

AND, (most) animals don't even have a concept of death. it's so stupid to call it murder lol.

[alfiq]

unnatural? i don't really see how. domestication of animals started thousands of years ago, i'd say it was a natural step from the domestication of plants.

and heres the thing, prey animals in the wild die all the time. they usually die young; from disease and injury and being picked off by predators. a far worse death than a captive bolt. domestic animals can get a good life free of stress, and don't need to die over something little like an infection. my animals would be dead several times over in the wild.

as julian mentioned calling it murder is pretty silly. animals do not see death the way we do, they dont have a concept of it like we do. animals in general dont have the same concepts as humans and anthropomorphizing does them no good and causes harm.
and the cruel fact about the world is that there can be no life without death. insects and other small animals do die in harvesting of crops all the time. plants also show a defensive response and react to being eaten, wouldn't that make it "murder" too?

and not everyone can do well on a plant based diet for medical reasons, i sure can't.

[косатка]

that's nature. what animal agriculture is far from natural. we bred these animals into existence and domesticated them. every animal should have the basic right to live. a deer was not bred to be slaughtered, unlike livestock. they should not be exploited for human benefits.

the academy of nutrition and dietetics agree and support that a plant based diet is healthy and nutritionally adequate for all stages of life.

is murder justified if the victim had a good life to life before their death?

Because "it's nature" means that an animal's "right to live" ceases to be? What you really mean is that animals have the right to not die from one particular species: humans.

Domestication is just a part of our evolution. There is nothing "unnatural" about it. And domesticated animals are very lucky. They get a relatively stress-free life, and a pain-free death (and please don't bring up factory farms again, no one here supports those). Wild animals live a life of stress and die painful deaths from illness, injuries, or from predators.

If we allowed murder, society wouldn't be able function. Whereas giving animals the "right to live"/"right to not die from humans" would have terrible consequences. They are not comparable. And as stated by the two above me, animals can't grasp the concept of death like we can.

And sure, a plant-based diet can be "healthy and nutritionally adequate for all stages of life" for plenty of people. Lots of people can thrive on a vegan diet. But not everyone's body works the same. There are many variables that come into play when it comes to the practicality or possibility of going vegan. Location, income, and medical issues all play a role. Mental disorders can play a role too! ARFID for example can make it very difficult for someone to be a healthy vegan. It is not a simple issue.

[Ancient Frost]

that's nature. what animal agriculture is far from natural. we bred these animals into existence and domesticated them. every animal should have the basic right to live. a deer was not bred to be slaughtered, unlike livestock. they should not be exploited for human benefits.

the academy of nutrition and dietetics agree and support that a plant based diet is healthy and nutritionally adequate for all stages of life.

is murder justified if the victim had a good life to life before their death?

As many people have said before me, animals don't see death as we do. First off, they usually don't get attached to their family the way humans do. I have rabbits so all of my examples are going to be from what I have observed raising meat rabbits. I butcher my rabbits within the eyesight of my others. The breeders and other kits show no signs of distress at seeing this. They pay no attention and just eat their hay and hop about. Second, They don't have the capacity to know they are going to die in the way humans slaughter things. In the wild, they are caught and held before being killed, fully aware of what is about to happen. Wild rabbits, when attacked have a death scream. They do it when in extreme pain and expect to die. When I kill them I use a tool called a hopper popper. There isn't so much as a squeak before they die. We have very advanced brains that allow us to feel things and process information in more depth then other animals do. Whereas we might know what is coming, the rabbit's calmness proves that they have no idea.

[teacupps]

animal welfare.

i love all animals. i really, really do.

i love animals when they're small, big, short, tall, fluffy, aloof, exuberant, wild, domestic, feline, canine, avian, insect, reptile, amphibian, rodent, whatever. my one wish in the entire world is that animals can live happily and freely. yet i am still an advocate for animal welfare.

i have owned many pets, still do. i plan on owning more. i ride horses. i have been researching working dogs, dog sports, and considering a service animal for myself for nearly 3 years. i have researched and read about animals since i was a child.

sure, some are all about "adopt don't shop". that's fine. but not all rescues are good, some have been known to buy dogs from puppy mills. some say all breeders are bad and the reason for dogs in the shelters, but they've lumped the backyard breeders with their algae-infested water dishes and tired, poorly-bred dogs with the responsible breeders with well-bred, healthy, functional dogs that spends all of their money on showing, sports, training, whelping, food, supplies, and genetic testing. the responsible breeder that is the reason the breed you claim to love (but only support if they're from a shelter) is alive today.

some zoos are bad, no doubt about it. seaworld is cruel. but a lot of zoos educate people of all ages on endangered species and what they can do to help, they have intensive breeding programs for vulnerable and endangered species, they're conservation based, their enclosures are huge and mimic what the animal's natural habitat would be, with lots of mental enrichment.

service animals, specifically dogs in this example.
you can go on and on about how it's selfish. manipulative. abusive. wrong. i mean, what can a dog do that a good therapist can't, right?
so much.
dare i say it 90% of service dogs are treated better than a lot of pet dogs. and that's saying something.
i personally know service dog handlers and the care they are given, i have seen them in action, been considering one for myself for nearly three years now. service dogs are given the whole world. handlers extensively research everything about dogs before they even fully decide on one, they're fed high-quality food, high-quality healthcare, they're groomed as much as necessary (brushing, washing, nails trimmed and teeth brushed - have those ARA's against SD's ever brushed the teeth of their pet?), they're socialised safely, trained humanely, exercised daily, given tons of outlets for energy, mentally stimulated, and most of all, they LOVE their job, they LOVE their handler and are happy to work for them.
and that isn't just for service animals. this also goes for other working dogs and sport dogs, heck, not just dogs - working + sport horses too!
yes, there's exceptions. of course there is. there are abusive service/working/sport animal handlers. abuse can be done with a person's hands, voice, tools, and inaction. i am not denying or turning a blind eye to abusive handlers but they are few and far between, and certainly do not represent all handlers.

sorry for getting a little heated, i'm very passionate about this topic.

[|Winter|]

the fact that anyone automatically jumps to "factory farming" when farms are brought up is like... laughable. you're really reaching.

anyway, yeah, factory farms are terrible. the beef and leather industry are horrid. factory pig farms are some of the most unethical livestock businesses. but they're not the only types of farms? small(er) family farms also exist and the animals are usually very well taken care of because otherwise, they won't produce goods and the family won't make money to live off of. they can't afford to have unhealthy livestock like factory farms can. the relationship is mutually beneficial.

In the US, 95% of all animal products come from factory farms, honestly just look it up. Family farms are few and far between simply because they don't make enough money. So to say that factory farming is terrible and horrible while also eating meat is hypocritical. You are directly supporting the thing you call bad. You also said that you're "poor as hell and can't afford to live off a vegetarian/vegan diet". Dude, I saved money when I cut out meat, it's literally the most expensive part of most diets. Just make the food you normally do except without the meat. Spaghetti with no meatballs, chicken noodle soup without the chicken and a vegetable-based broth, cheese instead of pepperoni pizza, or a peanut butter and jelly sandwich instead of a ham and cheese sandwich. It's not difficult or expensive, it's just change.

I also don't understand what native people you're talking about in some of your other posts. If you're referring to native Americans in the US then you're very wrong again. My grandmother is Lakota and she made it her mission to get me involved in my family's traditions. There is no "hunting to survive", we don't live in teepees out in the wild. We live in houses in neighborhoods and shop in grocery stores the same as you. The only hunting done in the US is by those privileged enough to have the time and resources to do so.

Domestication is just a part of our evolution. There is nothing "unnatural" about it. And domesticated animals are very lucky. They get a relatively stress-free life, and a pain-free death (and please don't bring up factory farms again, no one here supports those). Wild animals live a life of stress and die painful deaths from illness, injuries, or from predators.

If we allowed murder, society wouldn't be able function. Whereas giving animals the "right to live"/"right to not die from humans" would have terrible consequences. They are not comparable. And as stated by the two above me, animals can't grasp the concept of death like we can.

I'm really struggling with the fact that you're basically implying here that domestic animals live better lives than wild animals. If you're talking about dogs or cats, sure. If you're talking about basically any other animal that we've domesticated, absolutely not. Again, it comes down to the majority. It's estimated that there are around 500-900 million dogs in the world, of those, only about 25% actually live in homes, the rest are street dogs. Compare this to the 10 billion animals who die every single year in factory farms alone. Yes, I'm bringing up factory farms again because even though everyone here says they don't like them, most still continue to support them anyway. Meat = factory farms. There's no way to get around it unless you spend lots of money to buy from a local farm or raise your own animals.

When I say I support animal rights, I don't say the right to live because that is way too vague. I want and fight for the same rights that other animals such as dogs and cats receive. If a dog is abused, starved, or kept in unfit conditions, then they are taken from the home and the owner is fined. We understand as a society that it is wrong and immoral to mistreat an animal. I think most of this comes from the fact that a lot of us see and interact with dogs or cats on a daily basis. However, the only interaction most people have with cows, pigs, and chickens is when they are sitting on a plate in front of us. So thinking of them as anything other than a meal is considered radical. I want people to recognize that when it comes to feeling pain, loss, happiness, and anything else, that farmed animals are no different than the pets we keep in our homes and to treat them as anything less is just not right.

[magnapinna]

the fact that anyone automatically jumps to "factory farming" when farms are brought up is like... laughable. you're really reaching.

anyway, yeah, factory farms are terrible. the beef and leather industry are horrid. factory pig farms are some of the most unethical livestock businesses. but they're not the only types of farms? small(er) family farms also exist and the animals are usually very well taken care of because otherwise, they won't produce goods and the family won't make money to live off of. they can't afford to have unhealthy livestock like factory farms can. the relationship is mutually beneficial.

In the US, 95% of all animal products come from factory farms, honestly just look it up. Family farms are few and far between simply because they don't make enough money. So to say that factory farming is terrible and horrible while also eating meat is hypocritical. You are directly supporting the thing you call bad. You also said that you're "poor as hell and can't afford to live off a vegetarian/vegan diet". Dude, I saved money when I cut out meat, it's literally the most expensive part of most diets. Just make the food you normally do except without the meat. Spaghetti with no meatballs, chicken noodle soup without the chicken and a vegetable-based broth, cheese instead of pepperoni pizza, or a peanut butter and jelly sandwich instead of a ham and cheese sandwich. It's not difficult or expensive, it's just change.

I also don't understand what native people you're talking about in some of your other posts. If you're referring to native Americans in the US then you're very wrong again. My grandmother is Lakota and she made it her mission to get me involved in my family's traditions. There is no "hunting to survive", we don't live in teepees out in the wild. We live in houses in neighborhoods and shop in grocery stores the same as you. The only hunting done in the US is by those privileged enough to have the time and resources to do so.

Domestication is just a part of our evolution. There is nothing "unnatural" about it. And domesticated animals are very lucky. They get a relatively stress-free life, and a pain-free death (and please don't bring up factory farms again, no one here supports those). Wild animals live a life of stress and die painful deaths from illness, injuries, or from predators.

If we allowed murder, society wouldn't be able function. Whereas giving animals the "right to live"/"right to not die from humans" would have terrible consequences. They are not comparable. And as stated by the two above me, animals can't grasp the concept of death like we can.

I'm really struggling with the fact that you're basically implying here that domestic animals live better lives than wild animals. If you're talking about dogs or cats, sure. If you're talking about basically any other animal that we've domesticated, absolutely not. Again, it comes down to the majority. It's estimated that there are around 500-900 million dogs in the world, of those, only about 25% actually live in homes, the rest are street dogs. Compare this to the 10 billion animals who die every single year in factory farms alone. Yes, I'm bringing up factory farms again because even though everyone here says they don't like them, most still continue to support them anyway. Meat = factory farms. There's no way to get around it unless you spend lots of money to buy from a local farm or raise your own animals.

When I say I support animal rights, I don't say the right to live because that is way too vague. I want and fight for the same rights that other animals such as dogs and cats receive. If a dog is abused, starved, or kept in unfit conditions, then they are taken from the home and the owner is fined. We understand as a society that it is wrong and immoral to mistreat an animal. I think most of this comes from the fact that a lot of us see and interact with dogs or cats on a daily basis. However, the only interaction most people have with cows, pigs, and chickens is when they are sitting on a plate in front of us. So thinking of them as anything other than a meal is considered radical. I want people to recognize that when it comes to feeling pain, loss, happiness, and anything else, that farmed animals are no different than the pets we keep in our homes and to treat them as anything less is just not right.

plot twist you dont support factory farms if you raise your own meat
buying from a local farm isn’t that expensive just saying ( especially if you’ve got good connections)
would do a longer post but its 9 am