I used to feed my doggy poison. :D

[Darkest.Nation]

Grapes/rasins, onions, garlic (debatable), chocolate, alcohol, stems and seeds (fruits), and tons of other foods are fatal to dogs. It's been proven to be deadly or very harmful. Google it!

[Jazi]

Yup, that's what I mean. There are many foods that are not good for dogs at all, and can even kill some dogs in small amounts. Those I would never recommend giving to a dog (and the same for cats), but otherwise hey if you want to feed your cat Meow Mix it's entire life I won't stop you or think less of you *shrug* It just doesn't cut it in my book when the facts all say my cat could do much better on something else.

[Toru]

Ostwyn -
I think you're missing my point. I was discussing the dogs as carnivores vs. dogs as omnivores debate, not varieties of kibble or saying Ol'Roy is great. What it comes down to is that in my opinion an all-meat diet is not biologically appropriate or optimal for a dog (organs are meat. A diet containing only muscle/organ/bone is an all-meat diet), as I would not classify dogs as carnivores. The things cited as evidence of dog-as-carnivore are not substantial in my opinion, as there is evidence to contradict them. In addition, although unfortunately I cannot find the study, dogs fed a diet containing a carbohydrate energy source had steadier blood glucose levels than dogs fed a diet with fat as the sole energy source.

For the record, I feed Acana Ranchlands in the morning and Acana Pacifica in the evening (with a 1/4 cup of quinoa in the morning to boost carbs and fiber). Not a mixture of rice with some carrot and potato. If I did that it would contradict everything I said in my first post lol.

[Jazi]

Second part of my post was in response to the second part of yours, in which you implied that those of us who say a certain diet is better are not giving others a choice. To which I say, if you want to give your dogs something that I personally wouldn't feed mine (rice and carrots and potatoes, for instance, or Meow Mix for cats), then go for it. But I wouldn't do that myself because dogs, as I've said, are carnivores.

I call dogs carnivores because their ancestors, as accepted today by modern scientists, are also carnivores and as they are genetically similar enough to easily produce viable offspring that are not infertile (in comparison to lions panthera leo and tigers panthera tigris who have not yet produced a fertile liger), I would say that they are quite correctly classified as a subspecies of the modern grey wolf. That would make them nearly genetically identical to the grey wolf, which would firmly place them in the category of carnivore, which is why they're considered a subspecies canis lupus familiarus. I'm not sure what other proof is needed for a dog to be a carnivore, not an omnivore. I have already said, yes, they do eat plants and will scavenge if they have to. Dogs will even cannibalise if they have to, and can survive doing that. Survival is not always done in optimal health, and using that as proof that dogs are omnivores doesn't work.

[Toru]

Not all modern scientists fully accept the idea of the grey wolf as the dog's ancestor. It is accepted as being a likely theory, but not a fully proven one. They have yet to pin-point the site or exact sub-species of wolf that the dog was domesticated from. They are not thought to be a direct sub-species, and if anything are a sub-species of a sub-species (at this point they currently believe the sub-wolf was in Asia, but as I pointed out there is evidence of origins in Africa. They're not sure what to think about that though because there are no wolves in Africa).

"That would make them nearly genetically identical to the grey wolf"

The DNA sequence between wolves and dogs have 26 different sequences. As I stated, that is a significant amount.

"they are genetically similar enough to easily produce viable offspring that are not infertile"

Which they can also do with Jackals and Coyotes.

I have already said, yes, they do eat plants and will scavenge if they have to.

It's not a matter of if they have to. Dogs just scavenge because, well, that's what dogs do. They readily eat just about anything that will fit in their mouth. Feral dogs will occasionally form casual groups but they do not pack together like wolves, and are not capable of taking down large amounts of prey.

We will just have to agree to disagree.

[Jazi]

Not every scientist accepts Pluto as a dwarf planet, but that doesn't make it stop being the most accepted classification to date. Until a new theory gains acceptance, dogs will be a subspecies of wolf and will be firmly placed as carnivores. As for "that's what dogs do", yes, and I've given examples of other animals eating things that may not be the best for them because "that's what they do". Again, hippos and meat. Dogs and cannibalization. Elephants have eaten meat before (have eaten and survived on people before), while domestic cats, obligate carnivores, will steal french fries and bread from their owners as well as chew on catnip. Just because something can and will survive on something does not make it necessarily healthy for that creature, nor does it decide what every creature's food preference is. Going by that logic, nearly every animal would be an omnivore as carnivores have been seen eating plants and herbivores have been seen eating meat.

We can agree to disagree, but I will not stop calling dogs carnivores and steering people in the direction of high-protein diets until a new theory gains acceptance.

[IAmLink]

I'd also like to say that, on the many different people I know in life and those on many different animal sites and forums, I have known MANY people that have put their dogs on a raw diet. And I have, not once, heard anything negative happen to any dog on a raw diet. In fact, I have not heard of any stories where a dog did not show at least somewhat of an improvement, if not a great improvement. And these are dogs that are fed only raw meat, organs, and bones; no fruits, no vegetables, and no grains. And these are also not sites that are just about raw diets, they are just natural dog owner sites, so any person could also say something negative about the raw diet if they chose to. The only negative things I have heard about feeding raw, in fact, are those comments by people who have never even tried a raw diet; and if you've never tried something, you can't necessarily say "facts" about it.

The only times I have heard something negative about someone who had their dog on a raw diet, was always the owners fault. In particular, people who had left out raw meat, let if get warm, grow bacteria, and then fed it to their dog. Obviously a cause for concern and obviously made their dog sick.

It's the same as when a person eats everything that should be in a human diet; hair, skin, and nails look great, you have more energy, and you are healthier overall. The same goes with dogs on a raw diet; their coat and skin will become shinier and healthier, their teeth will be clean and their breath without most odor, higher energy levels, and a healthier dog with fewer illnesses.

Seeing this so many times, I cannot ignore the facts and, like Ostwyn, I will continue to promote high protein diets to people with dogs. Seeing and experiencing this evidence just proves to me that a raw diet is, quite possibly, the best kind of diet for almost any dog.

Once again, this not to say that dogs cannot eat fruits, vegetables, and grains, but shows that dogs can have incredibly healthy lives without it.

[Dakonic]

"they are genetically similar enough to easily produce viable offspring that are not infertile"

Which they can also do with Jackals and Coyotes.

The same study done on grey wolf/dog breedings was duplicated on Coyote/dog breedings and it showed a decrease in fertility amongst the offspring and a increase in genetic disorders in only a few generatio

-------------------
Some information with evidence that dogs are made primarily for digesting meat.
http://preymodelraw.com/why-pmr/

[Cardinal]

A friendly bump. I do not want this thread to completely fall off the map because it does have useful information.

[OneRowdyNight]

I'm not even going to get into that debate, because A.) I have, honestly, no idea what I'm talking about and B.) It'd be useless

I'm just curious, what brands would you suggest for working dogs? Herding-type and working-type, larger, more active dogs? My two eat Innova usually, but are on Science Diet right now for weight loss. I think they just need more excersise. e.e But, why listen to the one family member who knows anything about dogs and training? *Fades to grumbles*