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Re: SeaWorld and Marine Mammal Captivity

Postby SmokeyKitty » Tue Aug 23, 2016 12:27 pm

Narnian wrote:
    What do you suppose would happen if Lolita's tank did actually come under fire from the authorities? As nice as it would be to have a fairytale ending where she finds her family in the wild again, as discussed a few pages ago she is currently not a good candidate for release. A sea pen could work, but there are a lot of things that need to be worked out first. Then again, Miami Seaquarium might not even give her up, or the authorities could choose to instead transfer her to another captive facility (i.e. SeaWorld).


Seeing as SeaWorld's Florida facility is a little less than 4 hours north of MSQ, and the Florida park is the second least crowded in terms of Orca, I feel like they would want to try and move her there instead of flying her all the way across the country back to the pacific northwest.

The problem with that is nobody has any idea how she'll get along with other whales, especially more dominant/aggressive whales like Katina.

Personally, I would like to see her moved to a retirement tank much like the tank that was built for Keiko. It had water jets to simulate the ocean current, live kelp, rubbing rocks, and it filtered in natural sea water. A sea pen could be a possibility, but there's no telling how much life she has left, and so the upkeep of the pen could easily skyrocket (Keiko's seapen was left to rot away and very little, if anything, exists anymore).
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Re: SeaWorld and Marine Mammal Captivity

Postby SmokeyKitty » Thu Aug 25, 2016 7:54 pm

I know this is more about captive animals but this is extremely important and needs more attention.

THIS IS URGENT

Today, this article published by the Kitsap Sun stated that a 42-year old Southern Resident female known as J-14 Samish has gone missing and is likely deceased. However, the bad news does not stop there.

J-28 Polaris is believed to be living out her final days, as she is extremely thin and emaciated. What is even worse is that her seven month old calf, J-54, is not yet weaned and could very well die along with his mother.

These whales desperately need help, but at the speed at which things are going, it could be too late before they receive the help they need.

Please click this link and sign the petitions that are still open, and click here to find out how to urge lawmakers to breach the four lower Snake River dams so that we can save the salmon and, in turn, save the Southern Residents who require these fish to survive. Please also visit my forum post here where I have already listed many more ways to help this population of Orca.

Please do not ignore this issue; these whales need help and they need it now.
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Re: SeaWorld and Marine Mammal Captivity

Postby MerciResolution » Fri Aug 26, 2016 5:39 am

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Re: SeaWorld and Marine Mammal Captivity

Postby claypigeon » Fri Sep 02, 2016 11:54 am

i hate sea world and all that, keeping orca's locked away is terrible ;0;
my home has plenty of orcas free in the ocean, i just saw some a few days ago <3

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Re: SeaWorld and Marine Mammal Captivity

Postby perilous » Sun Sep 04, 2016 8:41 am

I'm honestly against it.

Seeing a large, beautiful animal, in such a small space, makes me sad.

Also, Orcas can swim up to 100 miles a day. Let alone the fact that Orcas are extremely social animals, so to keep them away from their friends, isn't fair.

ALSO, (yes, there's more,) Orcas can live anywhere from 30-100 years old in the wild. In case you're wondering, Orcas in captivity can only live to about 13.(Even though some orcas from Seaworld have lived to be 50, it still isn't the best life being given to them.) It really isn't worth it.

I know there's a lot of arguments about this, but that's just my opinion. No animal deserves to be caged-up like that.

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Re: SeaWorld and Marine Mammal Captivity

Postby adelphi prime. » Sun Sep 04, 2016 8:54 am

    I typed this huge long essay about what I thought about such a topic, as it is a difficult issue to decide upon and a lot of my information continued to go back and forth and back and forth, leading my opinion to be inconclusive. Being a person dependent on science, I see endless flaws in keeping orcas captive, but even more so in keeping them in sea pens or releasing them. I, personally, believe that with advances in science it may be possible to support a small group of orcas in captivity without a sea pen in the future.

    In the future is the key phrase, there.

    Right now, SeaWorld's orcas are in a less than perfect tank, and right now there's almost nothing anybody can do about it (yet!) that doesn't have a consequence that could be worse than the current well being of the orcas - even when it comes to ocean pens.

    On the other hand, animal captivity is a-okay with me so long as the animals are given the best habitats possible. Sometimes those conditions aren't perfect, but they are close, and the animals are happy or mostly content. An animal that isn't completely satisfied or content with its habitat doesn't always mean it's wrong to keep that animal in such a habitat. After all, you might not be completely content with your home, but does that mean you have to move out of it or even can?

    I would also like to point out that captive whales have been known to live past the average lifespan of wild whales.
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Re: SeaWorld and Marine Mammal Captivity

Postby perilous » Sun Sep 04, 2016 10:42 am

Narnian wrote:
    Regardless of your opinions, PETA (and SeaWorldOfHurt, which is run by PETA) is not a reliable source at all.

    Also, 9-13 is the average lifespan for all orcas in captivity, but it is by no means the oldest age any SeaWorld orca has reached. Corky is over 50; Katina, Kasatka, and Ulisis are about 40; Tilikum is about 35; and Takara, Kyuquot, Orkid, Shouka, and Keet are all about 25. And not all wild populations are well-studied enough to know their lifespan, but 100+ years is definitely the exception and not the rule.

    Edit: yes, for many populations the average lifespan of males is 30 with a maximum being 50, and females living 50 with a maximum being 100. source




While I'm completely aware that PETA isn't the best source, I did a project about this a few years ago. And although those orcas you listed are older than the average in captivity, it's still the point that some orcas can live up to 100. So whether an orca at Seaworld is 50, that's still a big difference for females. I'd also like to note that Seaworld has had tons of orcas in the past, most of them never living as long as Corky.
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Re: SeaWorld and Marine Mammal Captivity

Postby perilous » Sun Sep 04, 2016 11:22 am

^^

I'm not trying to start a huge argument, but..

1. I didn't source PETA, I think all I said was "Here's some quick facts." *I will remove that part, since it seems to be confusing. (I do completely agree with PETA not being the first site you should check out, because they are sort of opinionated, and do try to 'push' people to be on their side/go vegan.)
2. I also didn't say I used PETA as a source for my report from about 2 years ago.
3. I am going to remove the part where I said, "Orcas at Seaworld can live up to 13," because I didn't mean to say "at Seaworld." Like you said, that's the average for being in captivity. Sorry, that was totally my fault.


*I do completely agree with you about 'releasing them.' It wouldn't be good for them at all.
*Sorry if I made it sound confusing, I'm fixing all of my mistakes. Thank you for pointing it out, I'm not trying to spread false information.
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Re: SeaWorld and Marine Mammal Captivity

Postby SmokeyKitty » Sun Sep 04, 2016 2:31 pm

Just popping back in to point out a few things here and there that I think are important and/or I just want to mention.

1. I know that it's pretty much plastered everywhere about J-2 Granny being about 105 years old, but it's most likely false. As I stated before, my bookmarks are a complete mess so unfortunately I don't have the paper on hand, but the 100+ y/o estimate is based on a few factors that didn't turn out to be true; for example, researchers originally thought that (deceased) J-1 Ruffles was Granny's son - though after they managed to collect samples and run tests, it turned out they were not mother and son. Granny is most likely in her 80's, but that is still very, very old.

There are also some other post-reproductive females that are believed to be around the same age, including Lolita/Tokitae's presumed mother, L-25 Ocean Sun, who is estimated to be in her late 80's, and has outlived all of her immediate family (besides Tokitae). We probably would have more accurate guesses regarding their ages today if there was not such a huge generational gap due to wild captures in the 60's and 70's. If marine parks had not taken (and consequentially killed) so many Southern Residents, researchers could likely be able to sample many more whales and, in turn, would have been able to create more complete family trees.

(Just remember: When it comes to age, it's best to remember that the oldest whales are [usually] the exception, not the rule.)

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2. I don't think that we will ever be able to create tanks that are large or naturalistic enough to even compare to the ocean in the slightest. Using the SR's for example (again), they tend to stay in the Salish Sea/Puget Sound pretty much year round; but they still swim vast distances every day and in the winter, they've been sighted as far north as southeastern Alaska all the way down to southern California. There is the argument that they only swim those distances for food, but that's one of the things that keeps them active and engaged. In captivity, the whales are just tossed dead fish and then given plastic balls and jello for enrichment, which are either eaten or taken away after some time.

If you were going to create an environment large enough for these whales, it would have to be quite a few square miles in size and it would have to have rocks, kelp, maybe some water jets to simulate ocean currents, etc. And the construction of that kind of facility combined with the upkeep would be astronomical - not to mention many people would likely not visit because the whales would have the option to stay out of sight of visitors and on certain days, might not be able to be seen at all. I just personally do not think that cetaceans are an animal that will ever be able to be successfully held in captivity as they are too wide-ranging.

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3. The Blue World Project was entirely possible. The only real reason SeaWorld backed out of it at all was because the California Coastal Commission (CCC) would only allow them to proceed if SW agreed to cease breeding of their whales.

However, there were quite a few things that were wrong with the whole project. First off, SeaWorld announced the BWP long before they even tried to apply for permits, which makes it look like more of a PR move rather than an actual attempt to create a more suitable environment. Second, almost every SW whale has had it listed in their profile that they find construction noise aversive, meaning that they get aggravated and easily upset with the loud noises, which ends up putting trainers in danger. And lastly, the breeding ban put in place by the CCC would only have affected the California park, which is where most of their viable breeding whales are located. BWP construction could have easily moved forward at both the Florida and Texas parks. It could also have moved forward at the California park if SW had agreed to the special terms laid out by the CCC, and it seems especially disappointing now after having SeaWorld announce the end of their Orca 'breeding program'.

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4. Finally, I'd like to remind everyone that the 50/50 mortality rate among wild calves only applies to the Southern Residents. Other populations either have completely different mortality rates or they have not been studied well enough to come up with an accurate percentage. And the mortality rate is largely due to the high number of toxins and noise pollution that the SR's have to endure on a regular basis.
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Re: SeaWorld and Marine Mammal Captivity

Postby SmokeyKitty » Sun Sep 04, 2016 3:47 pm

Narnian wrote:
    I was not aware of that. I knew one of the reasons they estimated her to be that old was because of her supposed calves, but no-one ever mentioned that it had been disproved he was her calf at all. To be honest I should have known better when I saw it all over The Dodo - confession time, I used to read and cite that site (as well as PETA) unironically
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    For future use, I would prefer if you could find the papers, but I feel ya as far as disorganized bookmarks go.


Well part of the reason I can't find it is because it was a paper someone linked on Tumblr, and the "whale community" on Tumblr always seems to have extremely heated discussions/arguments about everything, so I'm not sure I'll be able to find it anytime soon. :P

However, this paper did come up once that shows Granny's estimated birth year as being 1916 instead of 1911, which would put her at 100 years old now if it were correct. But it also lists J-1 Ruffles as being part of the J-2 matriline, and then lists J-1's parents as "Unsampled Male/Female".

Without more DNA/samples to fill in the gaps, there's no real way of knowing Granny's true age.
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