Wild and Captive Whales/Dolphins Discussion

[Crossflare]

It was bond to happen anyway but the point is that Orcas are not whales they are giant purpoises and thus are actually if you think about really large dolphins. Heres a scary thought theres group of Orcas who hunts dolphins and eats them. Just thought I'd share that cause the documentary I watched on it shows that while orcas are purpoises they are also very intelligent and can even trick dolphins and ambush them.

But yeah talks have been had with miami seaquarium about lolita and it's been she's not in any condition to move much be put in a seapen. And I am sure if they were to evaluate her again it would be same result she's not in any condition to be moved she's to old, and she's been out of wild way to long. I mean if she were Keiko's age like 19 and in better condition it might be doable but as it stands she's not approved for release in order to have a seapen an animal needs to be approved for release into wild seapens aren't really used to retire orcas. As was case with Keiko the seapen was used to monitor him to make sure he was at least thriving, it was not used to retire him at all but rather help him transition into wild living which he enjoyed freedom before he died and hunted food to himself.

I would love for a seapen for her to happen but I don't think that it would get approved at all. When you factor in difficulties in actually getting everything lined for that permitting for just about everything involved in doing a seapen including the crane the fact is the likelyhood that it would approved is very small.

If your wondering how I know all this lets just say I lived in area at one point and like I said before even getting permit for any kind of on the water type of thing be it a structure or a seapen or a dock is difficult.

Edit: it's even more difficult to get the actual approval to do this stuff in the Miami area. Like you gotta understand that the world revolves around money. Even if a company can afford to do something like a seapen the fact is that if they are told they aren't going to get approval for it because of x reasons they don't do it. Waterfront property in Miami is highly valued do you honestly think that people are going oh I don't know give up their property for a seapen. The answer is no and miami seaquarium is not going to purchase million dollar waterfront property just to make seapen. Business wise they would consider waste of money for something that the Miami area probably won't approve at all because it's a water structure. There are also plenty of other issues including environmental concerns that would prevent them from approved for a seapen especially for Orca.

Edit: I am currently a business management college major and while I am still in college. What everyone wants to happen and the reality of it is that if you don't local laws obstacles that are in the way. You can't truly understand the reasons why lolita probably won't ever be in a seapen. It's simply put it's a waste of money from a business standpoint. Not my views but just a fact. It's the reason why seaworld won't bother with seapens either. They do not want to spend the money. It's not that they don't care about the animals it's that they care about the money more because they budget the money to maintain every aspect of the park including feeding animals and other maintence things. And a seapen is an not a needed money spender to them so it is not budgeted in. That would be like a zoo budgeting for a gigantic enclosure expansion without having the land to do so or even the approval to do it or the approval to purchase the land to do it.

Edit: I realize some people are going to say but it's nto that much money. Any money spent on something that isn't seen as needed is considered a waste to a business. Remember Seaworld and Miami Seaqurium are only marine rescues on the side they are primarily a business meaning their primary goal to make revenue to keep the park to keep the animals to keep the rides maintain in seaworlds case. They probably also have to pay taxes to cause what business doesn't pay any taxes.

[QueenPebbles93]

Yeah, I’ve seen a lot of documentaries and shows on Animal Planet about how Orcas gang up and ambush Dolphins it’s quite sad but it’s the circle of life. Most people think that orcas are dangerous which is true, but in reality most of them don’t care to bother you.

I understand SeaWorlds point of view that I’d just be a waste of money to expand when they need to focus on feeding the animals and the happiness of their customers. I wish they would expand but like you said it’d sort of be a waste of money and they probably wouldn’t have a lot of room for other animals

Edit: do you know if there’s anything we can do to help these animals?

[Crossflare]

Yeah, I’ve seen a lot of documentaries and shows on Animal Planet about how Orcas gang up and ambush Dolphins it’s quite sad but it’s the circle of life. Most people think that orcas are dangerous which is true, but in reality most of them don’t care to bother you.

I understand SeaWorlds point of view that I’d just be a waste of money to expand when they need to focus on feeding the animals and the happiness of their customers. I wish they would expand but like you said it’d sort of be a waste of money and they probably wouldn’t have a lot of room for other animals

Edit: do you know if there’s anything we can do to help these animals?

Well we need advocate for the best captive care possible and instead of trying to advocate seapens for animals who in captivity, we should probably become more familiar with the fact that Keiko's story was more a failure and not a success he sought out human interaction meaning he was not even remotely a good idea to be released. A seapen only allows the animal to be in an enclosed area with no freedom. Animals in seapens do not get released and advocating for a seapen is advocating for poor animal welfare. It's not in the animals best interest to be seperated from everything they are familiar and be thrust into a seapen because animal rights groups believe that an orca has a right to freedom. While this is true it is also a very very dangerous idea. Allowing orcas in captivity who have been there most of their lives or have been in born there into a seapen with the expectation of being released into open waters is very farfetched. In fact a seapen if we were to follow through with the plan to rehab an orca like Lolita and get her wild ready she would probably end up not returning to the wild and instead doing what Keiko and looking for human interaction she is no longer wild she dependant on people. Same with the Seaworld Orcas

What they don't tell you about Keiko is that he suffered while he was in that seapen and he did not care about other orcas upon release because he swam almost 1000 miles to find human companionship and died of pneumonia with the people who cared for him in a protected cove in a seapen. He was 27 when he died he could have outlived that if he had actually been tranferred to facility that had top quality and a larger tank certainly. He was not better off in the seapen he could have been better off in better living situation but instead he was subjected to being that whale that everyone wanted to free based on notion that orcas needed to be free cause of Free Willy. This is why it's very dangerous to just up and advocate for sea pen without knowing the true facts about Keiko's release.

He was basically taken away from everything he ever knew and was familiar all for the sake of trying to make the so-called Free willy movie true.

[magnapinna]

It was bond to happen anyway but the point is that Orcas are not whales they are giant purpoises and thus are actually if you think about really large dolphins. Heres a scary thought theres group of Orcas who hunts dolphins and eats them. Just thought I'd share that cause the documentary I watched on it shows that while orcas are purpoises they are also very intelligent and can even trick dolphins and ambush them.

But yeah talks have been had with miami seaquarium about lolita and it's been she's not in any condition to move much be put in a seapen. And I am sure if they were to evaluate her again it would be same result she's not in any condition to be moved she's to old, and she's been out of wild way to long. I mean if she were Keiko's age like 19 and in better condition it might be doable but as it stands she's not approved for release in order to have a seapen an animal needs to be approved for release into wild seapens aren't really used to retire orcas. As was case with Keiko the seapen was used to monitor him to make sure he was at least thriving, it was not used to retire him at all but rather help him transition into wild living which he enjoyed freedom before he died and hunted food to himself.

I would love for a seapen for her to happen but I don't think that it would get approved at all. When you factor in difficulties in actually getting everything lined for that permitting for just about everything involved in doing a seapen including the crane the fact is the likelyhood that it would approved is very small.

If your wondering how I know all this lets just say I lived in area at one point and like I said before even getting permit for any kind of on the water type of thing be it a structure or a seapen or a dock is difficult.

Edit: it's even more difficult to get the actual approval to do this stuff in the Miami area. Like you gotta understand that the world revolves around money. Even if a company can afford to do something like a seapen the fact is that if they are told they aren't going to get approval for it because of x reasons they don't do it. Waterfront property in Miami is highly valued do you honestly think that people are going oh I don't know give up their property for a seapen. The answer is no and miami seaquarium is not going to purchase million dollar waterfront property just to make seapen. Business wise they would consider waste of money for something that the Miami area probably won't approve at all because it's a water structure. There are also plenty of other issues including environmental concerns that would prevent them from approved for a seapen especially for Orca.

Edit: I am currently a business management college major and while I am still in college. What everyone wants to happen and the reality of it is that if you don't local laws obstacles that are in the way. You can't truly understand the reasons why lolita probably won't ever be in a seapen. It's simply put it's a waste of money from a business standpoint. Not my views but just a fact. It's the reason why seaworld won't bother with seapens either. They do not want to spend the money. It's not that they don't care about the animals it's that they care about the money more because they budget the money to maintain every aspect of the park including feeding animals and other maintence things. And a seapen is an not a needed money spender to them so it is not budgeted in. That would be like a zoo budgeting for a gigantic enclosure expansion without having the land to do so or even the approval to do it or the approval to purchase the land to do it.

Edit: I realize some people are going to say but it's nto that much money. Any money spent on something that isn't seen as needed is considered a waste to a business. Remember Seaworld and Miami Seaqurium are only marine rescues on the side they are primarily a business meaning their primary goal to make revenue to keep the park to keep the animals to keep the rides maintain in seaworlds case. They probably also have to pay taxes to cause what business doesn't pay any taxes.

Orcas is dolphins. not porpoises.

[rancidram]

Sad thing is, with her condition being the way it is, her days are numbered.
It's a shame that a company's greed is going to be the demise of such a beautiful animal.
Stepping away from the topic of Lolita and Keiko, I heard that all the orcas and belugas in Russias "whale prison" are being released!!

[QueenPebbles93]

Sad thing is, with her condition being the way it is, her days are numbered.
It's a shame that a company's greed is going to be the demise of such a beautiful animal.
Stepping away from the topic of Lolita and Keiko, I heard that all the orcas and belugas in Russias "whale prison" are being released!!

Is that more of a good thing than a bad thing?

[magnapinna]

Sad thing is, with her condition being the way it is, her days are numbered.
It's a shame that a company's greed is going to be the demise of such a beautiful animal.
Stepping away from the topic of Lolita and Keiko, I heard that all the orcas and belugas in Russias "whale prison" are being released!!

Is that more of a good thing than a bad thing?

Good thing. the cetaceans has been deemed to be okay to be introduced into the wild again, the only animals that needs a longer rehabillation time is the young belugas.

[QueenPebbles93]

True because they are still learning how to survive without their mothers if they got separated

[rancidram]

This has been going on since Sept 1st, and I haven't been paying much attention towards CS.
But, the Taiji dolphin slaughter has been going on for 20 days now. For those who don't know much about Taiji, I highly recommend watching 'The Cove'. It is a documentary about the yearly tradition in Taiji, Japan and talks about both the slaughter of hundreds of cetaceans, as well as how dolphinariums benefit from the slaughters. A massive pod of pilot whales have been taken into the cove. 29 were slaughtered. 6 were taken into captivity. And the remaining 30 were released....

Also going on, SeaWorld has moved 3 pilot whales from Orlando to San Diego. The pilot whales were all living in their own area of Shamu stadium (which included lots more room), however, these whales will be moved to a much smaller tank in San Diego which is already housing Argo, another pilot whale. This tank is MUCH smaller than the orca tank in Orlando as it is meant to house bottle nose dolphins, not 19 feet long whales (short finned pilot whales are 18 ft). Unfortunately, I don't believe the three pilot whales will get along with Argo as they are two entirely different subspecies. Argo is a short finned pilot whale (which live in the pacific) and the three other whales are long finned pilot whales (which live in the Atlantic). Like orcas, each type of whale has their own 'language'. I imagine this being incredibly difficult and frustrating for the whales now that they have to share a tank with a foreign whale. This may result in aggression...

Please feel free to discuss about anything regarding whales and dolphins! This isn't exclusive to captivity! I'd love to hear more about the SRKWs and vaquita )

[rancidram]

Another odd thing is happening at SeaWorld Orlando...
Orlando now has a large school of live fish in the UVA (underwater viewing area) at Shamu stadium. The fish are being kept in the same tank where the three pilot whales were before being moved to San Diego.
Aquariums and their supporters would claim that live fish cannot be with captive toothed whales/dolphins because they 'scare' the whales (which I think is a fat lie) or that they would spread diseases to the whales and dolphins.
The dolphins at Epcot share their tank with fish, but the fish would stay away from the dolphins. And the excuse of the whales being scared/sharing diseases is a really dumb argument. The fish are small enough to fit through the bars of the tanks and the water is shared between all the different tanks. If the fish are used for a more natural way of eating prey, it still raises many questions. Most of the Orlando orcas have teeth that have been drilled away.
Some other questions I have are: Will the fish be used as decoration or enrichment? Were they farm raised? Were they caught sustainability? Were they cured of parasites? (theres photos of these fish from Instgram user @sevenseaoffreedom)
Also, according to someone in the comments, theres live fish in the orca tanks at San Diego as well....