Does anyone else feel like Demand is killing CS?

[Asvoria]

I think Tailish raises some very important points.
I've lately also come to realize that any pet that used to sit "below the gap" on the "Mainlist" is completely left in the dark right now and there are way too few trades on the Successful trade thread to support any decent value terms.
I'd personally agree that the focus sits on the wrong pets, but I don't really know how we'd strenghten the impact of lesser valuable pets without building a hierachy or finding a similar currency term (other than Mid-advents).
Whenever pets of the old "Advent, September" Lists are names, MA-values or 09-rares quantities are quoted from the old list. MAny of the pets mentioned sit on completely wrong tiers and are still traded for lower values, as the list is still the only guide accessible when trading such pets, that gives an easy-at a glance value.
The community desperately needs to emphasize actual knowledge of trading and we all need to help players to understand how values are created instead of giving them a blanc check with the current trading norm printed on it. That's not fair to either side and also way too rigid to reflect a real market.

[Harlowe]

Personally, I trade to people using and not using lists and am very selective/strategic in my decisions.

Here's my issue with some of the demand being sky-high and how it gets that way:

I have nowhere to put trades I've done where both parties are happy, aware of worth and not using the list, ex-list values, or sky-high demand. Stuff where pets are going well "under demand/value", and it ain't because we're trading unfairly. Here are two trades I've completed since Jan 31st:

example one- dark leopard for golden tabby tiger store pet - the fact that one is a never to be released again store pet with popular lineart was more important than one being ex-list
example two- floppy green pastel for 2 current store pets and 2019 Halloween rares; didn't care; preferred these pets to theirs

I would have happily posted these on the VR and OMGSR Successful Trades Thread -

Except I did READ RULES.
And 3. Don't post any trades you know were very unfair to one side. (Use FTT if unsure) Even though to us as trading partners, we considered it fair, it scared me off because 100% I can guarantee most of the users on FTT would be screaming unfair.

But those are two trades within the past couple months and guess what, the pets were traded and users were happy. I feel like I mostly see a lot of the sky high stuff, and the trades that are happening for less 'value/demand' often don't get posted or get told off for being unfair. Reality is, there is a low end to demand, too, and sometimes it would be nice to see the full curve, not only the average and above part, otherwise average becomes the new low, and the perceived value just increases exponentially.


Honestly, demand really is up to you and your partner - and it's nice to see there are some of us out there trading differently and that it's OK. Some more balance, instead of only posting the high demand, or telling users things are automatically unfair (when in some cases, trade partners decide: between you and me, I think this is fair and am happy to make this trade) would be nice. Since the list ended I see a lot more of this advice, but there's still a ton of just the most extreme trades being posted and off list values dismissed as players not knowing any better. Some of us do, and we're still making the types of trades those threads would frown upon. We're the other side of the bell curve for demand and value.

[Tailish]

smol bump because recent evidence has shown we're not done with this discussion yet.

[lucifer morningstar]

just my two cents: demand hasn't been driven entirely by greed, but also due to the shortage of certain pets, like old store pets. they're not like some older and valuable pets, like nons, sunback, even URs, because there is never a chance to get any more into the trade pool. lots of people trade for them and keep them, meaning there is a slowly diminishing number, causing people who want them to trade more, while the few that have one expects more due to their diminishing numbers. some people also pay x amount for one and want x amount back when they trade it off. doesn't necessarily make them greedy, just wanting to get back the investment they put into it.

I also personally think discontinuing the Rares List played a huge part in the now utter chaos of trading. even if it wasn't official, it was still a guide. someone could see a general idea of where things were, including general demand. sure, some still wanted more but I felt as though it kept the insane numbers down, such as only a non for a skelebun instead of ten. when that was discontinued and discredited, even after being put together by lots of experienced trade users and members over several years, people were suddenly told they could value their pets at whatever they want, including demand. the simple fact is no one is going to trade their sorbet for a watermelon dog. yet this "appears" to be a fair swap since they're within three months and the same rarity. people also could decide the demand of their pet, so they could just hike up the value of their pet and claim it was fair. so it confuses newer players, exasperates older players who still follow the general list, and just opens up the trading platform to more chaos and confusion. I voted against discontinuing it because I knew this would happen and that is exactly why the trading economy for ex-list pets is now, in my opinion, in the toilet. but that's my opinion.

[Imbion]

I don't know how much my perspective is worth, but I personally have never owned an OMGSR pet before. Although several pets I used to have turned OMGSR, I no longer own them. My fodder for very rare pets is almost solely dependent on store pets, as every single attempt I make to trade up tends to end up with me being discouraged. This has always been a problem for me, even before the rares list was discontinued. Achieving an OMGSR pet for me seems impossible, and it is the reason why I only seek to complete my item collection, because obtaining a complete pet collection for me seems like it simply will never happen, even if store pets are to be excluded.

Part of me feels like this is because I don't take trading too seriously, but there's a reason I fail to take it seriously. The demand intimidates me severely when it comes to trading. I have lost valuable pets in the past due to the conception of demand, and I am worried that if I achieve such valuable pets again the same thing will occur. I have also simply resorted to trading my valuable pets for C$ in the past, because it is less intimidating for me to deal with the pets I can purchase from the store.

I think a fundamental flaw indeed does lie in the lack of store rereleases. I completely understand the philosophy behind this the staff have, don't get me wrong. C$ is a special currency that people who are directly supporting the site use, and the staff want to support those users. However, their status of not being recirculated into release like every other single pet on the site brings a terrible drawback. It places these pets high on an unreachable pedestal that no other pet can ever hope to reach. Everyone knows they are not being recirculated. Everyone knows that their rarity will not fall on Decemeber 18th. They only get more valuable, to the point that their value reaches into the abstract. Even if other pets are worth more, it is only a matter of time before these uncirculated pets become the most valuable on the site. It is an absolute inevitability, and it will reach a point where the economy becomes unsustainable. It will reach a point where no single reasonable trade for these pets is possible, thus locking out users who seek to archive their pet collection. Yes yes, I know pets from the store are not considered part of the official collection, but they're still in the archive, so in the mind of many they still count. You know there's a problem on your hands when you have to exclude certain pets from the collection.

A lot of storepets are extremely popular. Demand for the Raven Dog back in the day was an absolute nightmare, to the point that high tier main list pets were expected for it. I fear what will happen in the future concerning it. Make no mistake, I have never been able to trade on that scale, but what I witnessed there was honestly not pleasant to witness. We witness this on a smaller scale when it comes to the PPS dragon cat. Because they are popular, a lot of people are going to want to keep them for themselves. Thus, that means as these pets circulate from user and user more and more, less of them are going to become available as people who do not wish to keep them obtain them.

Is keeping a promise to the users who purchased C$ in 2009 worth jeopardizing the entire state of the site? A time when C$ was not in actual trade circulation, when the site was far less popular, when the only people who could get their hands on the pets were those willing to pay.

It is not worth it in my view.

But the CS staff are in an extremely difficult position. Starting to release store pets in any way could be severely flawed. Tie them to a C$ grab bag? Congrats, you just make the game's economy a pay to win one. Rerelease them normally? Congrats, there goes a lot of the reason why people purchase C$ pets and help the upkeep of the site.

This is a difficult issue to fix, but a solution must be found.

Because as this goes on, my motivation to ever reach an OMGSR pet, to get a trade fodder worth anything - It is becoming a thing of a past. And I've been here since 2012.

What about the new users who are even further away from obtaining valuable pets? What about them, who don't even have the old uncommon and rares to potentially trade up with enough work?

If someone like me is feeling like it is unobtainable... Imagine how new users to this site are feeling. All because they failed to join the site early enough. Or weren't trusted by their parents to purchase things.

I sometimes feel the same way.

This is only the store pet issue. This does not even touch on the fact that the rares list is absent, and demand is the only thing people have to properly go off of - but I don't feel like this is my place, as I've never seriously traded within the rares list. Other people in this thread have made better points on that matter.

[Shian]

Is keeping a promise to the users who purchased C$ in 2009 worth jeopardizing the entire state of the site? A time when C$ was not in actual trade circulation, when the site was far less popular, when the only people who could get their hands on the pets were those willing to pay.

It is not worth it in my view.

Hmm....
New site event idea: Use the site host from 2008 so that all players, both old and new players understand how necessary C$ sales are. How necessary store pets are for the server.

Spend one week on the old server, constantly refreshing just to adopt ONE pet.
Or have your entire forum reply just eaten.
Or you can't even open your inbox because of the site timeouts.
Or not even being able to put pets into folders because the site is too slow.

There's so many ways to get rare pets now. Way more than there were back then. Do art, offsite trades, join giveaways, stalk the pound.
Are you somehow expecting an OMGSR to just fall into your lap? Because it can and it does happen if you put just a little effort into it. There's plenty of newer players (less than a year of play) that have a skelebun already.

[Shinryu]

Honestly I think the whole promise thing is the smaller issue when it comes to the idea of re-releasing store pets. I don't think the Admins would be completely opposed to store re-releases if that were the only thing that stood in the way. But it's as pointed out: There's no fair way of releasing them again.
Unless you put them in the freebie 18th box, that is. And I do think there is a line between "decide to re-release pets we once said would be permanently retired", and "release those again AND make them free". There's good reason that never happened again after 2010.
Some sites give you the ability to get premium currency without spending money/trading for them, but CS doesn't, and I do feel it'd be a slap in the face to people to re-release things that were bought with money for free.
You're focusing on the very old store pets, but there's plenty of people buying store pets even now, considering that they will be retired and are not available as freebies. CS has been selling these for currency only for many years.

People do and will complain. As nice as it'd be if everyone felt chill about seeing something they spent real cash on be brought back for free, that won't happen.
When the first re-release happened, Tess got backlash just for bringing back free adopts. This is something that a lot of people now don't remember or consider, because at this point December 18th is well-established tradition, but bringing the box back for our second advent calendar was actually a bit of a controversy, and that was for pets that cost you absolutely nothing.

And releasing them again for pay is impossible without either destroying their rarity completely, or ending up in a lootbox scenario.

sure, some still wanted more but I felt as though it kept the insane numbers down, such as only a non for a skelebun instead of ten.

The Skelebun already went for more than one non before the list retired.^^ Its demand spiked very fast after it changed rarity, so it hasn't been going for a single non in quite a while.

[Destiny]

I dont see why there cant be a rerelease of store pets, with specific considerations. Calculate how many you can sell, that wont affect the official rarity. We all know that within each specific rarity, there is a sliding scale for each pet where they sit. For example is pet "A" on the lower or high end of the uncommon level. If it was closer to the lower end you could effectively release more of them without it sliding into common. Base this on how many have been deleted, or have gone inactive. Especially consider those that have been deleted. For example If during the first release 1000 pets were sold, and the pet was marked rare, then after some time they became very rare, consider how many you could release back up to the 1000 mark, but keeping in mind their rarity level. Rarity goes unaffected, but demand respectively decreases because people know they wont become unobtainable. Think of it from the other end of the spectrum, if 1000 store pets were released, and eventually there was only 5 in circulation, how many of those 5 people are the ones that actually purchased the pet from the store through C$, and also how many of those 5 actually were betting and planning that it would come down to only 5 pets ever existing in the system (this is an extreme exaggeration at this point, but given the system, and if CS lasts, not impossible). I think its 100% fair to keep the active number of pets at least the same as was released during the original release, because then CS cant say that theyve released MORE into the system. Rather that there is the same amount out there, as was originally released. This is imho how to squash the demand issue with these specific pets. And drop the idea that they will never be rereleased again, its damaging, and whats happening in the trading system is proof of that. Id honestly be more inclined to support this site monetarily if they fixed this issue, but as it stands wont ever because of this.

[Shinryu]

But how will you sell a capped number of those store pets without disadvantaging users based on how fast they are or at what time they are online?
Consider pound openings and how fast the rare pets are taken, or for a more real-life scenario, consider concert tickets for popular artists.
It creates a first-come-first-save scenario that will pull a chance at getting these pets down to when you are online and how fast your connection is. Timezones, work and school schedules, desktop vs mobile, loading speed/wifi availability all factor into how easy it is to grab something limited.

[Destiny]

But how will you sell a capped number of those store pets without disadvantaging users based on how fast they are or at what time they are online?
Consider pound openings and how fast the rare pets are taken, or for a more real-life scenario, consider concert tickets for popular artists.
It creates a first-come-first-save scenario that will pull a chance at getting these pets down to when you are online and how fast your connection is.

And this sadly would just have to be a disadvantage. Because no system could be perfect. As you said this is a real life situation with many things, concert tickets being one of them. Dinner reservations. Many things. Its just how the world works. Nobody plotting against anyone, just reality. The bigger issue imho is if things continue to go the way they are, ive only been back a short while, and to see how many people are frustrated...and how long this has gone...is heartbreaking. Its ruining the site.

Someone mentioned that to get harder pets, I should learn to draw, or find another website to do offsite trading, or rely on giveaways of these hard to obtain pets. These solutions are scary, the solution should end in people being able to trade for these pets still...not having to learn a new skill, or join a different website.



Just wanted to edit to say:

I am part of a game where I pay real money. They release monthly special items, that are "limited time". Meaning they are for sale for a short time, are much more in value then regular items you can get any day, and then we dont see them...until the site decides to sell them again. Be that a year down the road, two years, three years. People still flock to buy these items. Many people cant buy them, so they have to trade for them. They are still VERY valuable, and everybody understands that we may see them for sale again. But that it might not be for a long time. And ive literally never seen anyone on the fourms or any other sites complain about the fact that they come back, because its a non issue with the system, the items are still worth a lot.

Anyways just food for thought <3 I hope everyone stays safe!!