New Trading Standards Discussion (please join in!)

[Sashtato]

I don't agree that VRs should start at 30 C$, but with the revamp I like the higher-end of where you've put VRs.

VRs starting at 30 C$ only makes sense comparing them to store pets that turn VR when you're not thinking about the fact that Store Pets don't get rereleased. The problem with starting all VRs at 30 is that it assumes a VR of the year you're in right now, would 1:1 Swap with a store pet of the same year- which I don't think it would ? I certainly wouldn't trade a store pet in the store rn for 2 2023 rares. The recent-year VR would either be a lot more due to a skyrocket of demand due to being a cool pet/recent vr, or it would just be worth 2 of the year's rare pets.

For a more-constructive conversation and another take:
I've seen people doing "8 Rares any year for 1 Store pet in the store rn"
This assumes people are trading 8 Rares from 2023 for 1 Store pet from 2023, 30/8 = 3.75, probably under what they sell those rares for (because I've seen a few people with that deal, turning around and selling 2023 Rares for 5-7 C$, which is how they make their 'profit'.)

So, personally, I think valuing a VR of this year at like 10-14 C$ would be fine. Assuming Rares are 5-7 C$.

I value 12 2023 Rares as 1 09 Rare nowadays, so 5 x 12 = 60, 7 x 12 = 84. My personal value for 09 rares would be 60-84 C$ depending on where we put 2023 Rares with this chart.

I also would and have paid more than 1 C$ for older commons (up to like 5 I think?), and I've seen lots of people with uncommon C$ prices a lot higher than 4. There are commons out there that I've paid more than your maximum value Uncommon for. Personally, I've seen a 2015 Very Uncommon at like 10 C$ recently. But Idk how well that works out with the rest of your chart.

Just some thoughts ^^

I originally felt like the prices of R and VR pets seemed good, but after you broke it down like that I can’t help but feel inclined to agree.

I will say though that I don’t think lower rarities should increase by very much, if at all, especially if rares and up are being considered for decreasing in price. I haven’t been successful in finding people willing to pay that much (9 for a VUC for a 2015 or older VUC is what I have my prices at rn) and I don’t feel super inclined to pay that much myself. Maybe the commons could go up a tiny bit, but I personally like the 1C$ price across the board for them.

I think the hard thing though is that we’re all used to C$ values being different than pet values, and if we want to use this chart for both (which we SHOULD, it’s crazy to me that they were different before), then we need to change the way we think. Which means some prices may be way different than we were previously used to so that they can match actual pet values. Which is something I know I need to work on and I noticed you pointed out with the VRs vs stores which is a great start

[SolarSonnet]

There aren't actually any 2023 VRs, to be honest I'm not sure what year has the newest VR right now. The only way we're getting a VR is if there's a hard to get rare event pet, or CS implements the community poll of a rarer pet in regular litters and it turns out to be VR. In either case, it will be a very heavily sought after pet, so I do think it would command a higher value. Although I suppose the question is, how much would such a pet actually trade for? It's very hard to tell.

Regarding rares, do you really think the date still matters that highly despite the extra rarity labels? All of the valuable 09 pets are now VR and ER, there's not much left in the R tag and they are nothing special from what I can see. I'm not sure if they are worth so much, but maybe I am wrong here. I know the old UC C$ charts had massive value differences for dates, but UC pets are now spread out amongst C, UC, VUC, EUC. So I think they should not vary so much. People who paid more for UCs, are the pets they were buying now EUC?

I do think it's worth noting that the chart does not cater to demand. I literally just received this trade today, and I am guessing the other trader offered generously because of the species (lion) and they are PPS. But I'm not sure how to accommodate such things in a C$ chart. I guess with a value range, but I don't want the chart to look complex and become harder to understand.

It's not easy to work out how we should value pets, is it.

Personally, Idk where I stand with 09-10 rares anymore. It got pointed out to me that most of the 09 rares were uncommons before, and a few had extended releases into 2010 iirc. So they're not like.. really 09 rares?
Which is why my most recent charts factor that in..

It just gives me the problem of:

I don't know how to make the chart feel nice and neat when 09 r = 2010 r, but 09 VR =/= 2010 VR.

I don't think we should be factoring in demand in the chart, so ranges would probably be bad. I'd just shove a little asterisk next to it and say "These are baseline prices for standard demand pets. Demand may increase or decrease these prices."

This heads into my next topic pretty seamlessly:

I agree that some recent VRs will probably trade for store pets with demand, but without it, I don't know.

Specifically, I was looking at the 2022 Halloween Dragon VR



This thing has a sick design so obviously it goes for a lot. I haven't seen a recent 'mediocre' VR Pet, (probably because they try to make the rare pets look really cool so people.. actually want them? lol). But, I do think that it would harm trading as a whole to factor in demand in C$ before we even know what the pets look like.
If a 2022 VR is worth that much without demand, then the price will be inflated even more with it.


and the Rainbow Mouse Rat VR from the 2022 Internet Event.



This is from the same year. Is this worth 30 C$? I think this rainbow mouse rat and the 2022 dragon are the exact references we needed to chart out this C$ Chart. I think this is the VR that's worth 14 C$, and the Dragon up there is the one that with demand is worth 30 C$.

I actually cannot find trades with the dragon outside of this one on the FTT, Horror's new guide doesn't say anything about it having special demand, just that it's worth 2 rares of its age group. That being said, there's also this on the "How much is this pet worth" thread, and it seems like people want it a lot, it's even on my WL and I almost offered one of the uh.. Store Snail Snakes(?) for one. But decided against it because it was an auction and those tend to over-inflate the price really quickly.

That being said:

Will ALL recent VRs go for 09 rares or store pets, even if some do?

I don't think so. I think that should be up to the demand of the pet. If we set 30 C$ baseline, then people will start asking for 45 C$ for something like the 2022 Banner Dragon, when I actually don't think it's worth that much. It kind of feels like we're pre-emptively factoring in demand when we don't know what the demand will be, and the rainbow mouse rat vs the centipede banner dragon perfectly demonstrates that one.

--

As for commons/uncommons from earlier years. I agree with like ~2015 VUC being like 9-10 C$.
I guess 2:1 would factor that as being like.
(in C$)
2.5 C = 5 UC = 10 VUC = 20 EUC = 40 R
or
2.25 C = 4.5 UC = 9 VUC = 18 EUC = 36 R
Which uh. Is like Double what is currently on the thing for rares and I disagree.

Consulting my old chart for math values (bc that's where I'm at rn) and using 5-7 C$ as a 2023 Guide.

(this took over an hour, oops)

It has examples of both starting at 5 C$ and starting at 7 C$ for 2023 Rares, with the rarity math used in my other chart.
Google Doc Chart

Images in case you don't wanna click the doc




I left some spots open because I don't know what to do with them, that's what the discussion is for lol.

--

For store pets:
I'd also say "See List" or provide an asterisk for 2011, tbh. 2/3 of the Basilisk Dogs hit OMGSR.

Idk how to value them otherwise. Especially since they're so varied. For example, I've seen 2017 Gryphons (not even the pps one) go for like 100 C$.

[Solloby]

I personally prefer the idea of date ranges, but a lot of people seemed to want individual dates earlier. Maybe this is something we need to poll, to find out what most people prefer in a C$ and trading chart:

1. Individual Years with exact values
2. Grouped Years (3-5 yrs) with smaller value ranges
3. No Years with larger value ranges

From there, I think we need to talk more about store pets and non-store VRs. One thing I think is strange is seeing VR store pets being swapped for older R pets. I understand date matters to people, but a VR who will never be rereleased and has nice line edits vs a Rare that it is lower rarity and will be rereleased in the future does not compute to me.

Perhaps we need a discussion where we gather up some recent VRs like the ones you found SolarSonnet, and ask people to post what they would/have traded for it or value it as. I think the rainbow rat is fantastic btw. Isn't its lower value dictated by it being a rat though? People will treat lower demand species like that across all rarities. I think we need to find some VRs across the years to help us work out what fair values for them may be.

[SolarSonnet]

I agree with a poll, and the rarities thing. For me personally, I hit a middle ground where Years are grouped together in ratios.
I.E. 1 2011 = 1.5 2012

You can see I have my guide on the thing, where I used it for Rares, 2009-2010 is 1:1, 2010-2011 is 1:2, 2011-2013 is 1:1.5, etc.

So this is "pets are grouped together by years, and the years dictate how much value you need to add to get to the next year" with it being a higher ratio in older years and a lower ratio in newer years.

To get from a 2022 Rare to a 2021 rare, you need a 2022 Rare and a Common.

But to get from a 2012 to a 2011 rare, you need a 2012 rare and an Extremely Uncommon.

The math around 2009-2011 is math'd based on the fact that there was an influx of new users in 2011, making 2:1 actually work between 2010 and 2011 because of all of the new users that joined that year. There were less users between 09 and 10, so rares from that year are.. about even.
I think I'd say that an 09 VR is like 3 2010 rares, and a 10 VR is worth 2 '10 rares, just to keep the 09 VRs still worth a little more.

--

Store pets being swapped for regular rares also never made sense to me. Even the store pets that are regular rares being swapped makes no sense, because with store pets, the more that were bought, the more popular it was (usually, unless someone is hoarding) which means it'll have more demand in the future.

I.E.
The store pps dragon snake or the cats


These are regular rares because people liked them enough to buy them that much. So I don't get trading them for 1 Regular R/VR from 09, much less the ones from like 2011 that some guides suggested.

[Thinking.Kiwi]

So this is Draft v2 with both your feedback incorporated:

I'm absolutely loving this chart! I'll definitely be tweaking my chart according all of these suggestions, you guys are solving age-old problems i had with mine, hehe~

EDIT: This is what i feel like i'm most comfortable with rn

[SolarSonnet]

Major disagree on 2009 rares only being worth 4.5 23 rares. It's more like 10-15, imo. The scaling of my chart put them at 16 but I'd probably edit some of those numbers to make it more like 12 or 14 in a final version.

--
Anyway-
The recent VR changes are actually here on Horror's new guide.

If you don't feel like clicking, its the Centipede Dragon and Rainbow Mouse Rat from 2022,

The Pastel Star Bun, Tricolor Spots Bun, and All Cave Bats from 2021

And the Rainbow Drink PPS and All Rollercoaster Horses from the 2020 Carnival Event.

There's also some rabbits in 2019 + the Elf Hamsters, more rabbits in 2018.. And I think thats the 'most recent'

After 2017 you end up getting a lot more VR pets per-year. There are 4 in 2017 and 35 in 2016. Big jump lol

[lil rascal]

I can understand the concern about having newer rares and VRs priced a lot higher than currently in relation to store pets as I personally wouldn’t want to trade a store pet for just 2 recent rares. I also agree that a single rare of any age for a store pet that is never going to be rereleased is ridiculous.

With that in mind maybe rather than raising the price of recent rares so much the better idea would be to lower the cost of older rares a little? Maybe rather than ‘09s being 50C$ they should be around 40C$? I’m not sure if the community would happy for it be taken lower though?

As for commons/uncommons from earlier years. I agree with like ~2015 VUC being like 9-10 C$.
I guess 2:1 would factor that as being like.
(in C$)
2.5 C = 5 UC = 10 VUC = 20 EUC = 40 R
or
2.25 C = 4.5 UC = 9 VUC = 18 EUC = 36 R
Which uh. Is like Double what is currently on the thing for rares and I disagree.

Consulting my old chart for math values (bc that's where I'm at rn) and using 5-7 C$ as a 2023 Guide.

(this took over an hour, oops)

It has examples of both starting at 5 C$ and starting at 7 C$ for 2023 Rares, with the rarity math used in my other chart.
Google Doc Chart

Images in case you don't wanna click the doc




I left some spots open because I don't know what to do with them, that's what the discussion is for lol.

Personally I think these charts are jumping in value way too much with the older pets and extremely over pricing them. I think it’s important to remember that we no longer go from common to uncommon to rare, there are two more rarities between uncommon and rare. What that means to me is that uncommon now simply means slightly less common than a common, it is no longer the big bridge between common and rare. I don’t think an Extremely Uncommon of any age should be valued anywhere near 42-56C$. That’s more than most ‘10-‘09 rares currently sell for. Likewise 83-112 for ‘10-‘09 rares is way too much. In my opinion VRs need a price increase to bring them inline with the 2 R= 1 VR guideline but we shouldn’t take the old rares above the current accepted amount, if anything maybe drop it a bit like I said above.

The reason I suggested a range rather than a set price is that different pets do go for vastly different prices. For example in my C$ store I currently have ‘09 rare rats at 25C$, horses, ponies and Bwolves at 35C$ and dogs and Malks at 50-55C$. Trying to ask the recommended 50-55C$ across the board would be unrealistic.

[Solloby]

I feel like we're all on the same page on the a lot of conversation topics here. There are still a few things we seem to have different opinions about, but that's not a bad thing. We should discuss them more and hope that other people join in with their opinions too c:

Regarding 09 rares, I don't think these pets are as valuable as some of the suggested chart formulas are indicating. The C$ worth thread had 09 UCs at a maximum of 15C$, and these pets are the 09 rares we are talking about here. So already my draft 2 chart has these pets at double their old values, but I feel that is justified by their new rarity tags. The 09 rare valuation from that thread is 35-55C$, but that range covers VR as well, and doesn't differentiate between early 09s (who are mostly ER) and late 09s (who are mostly VR and R). So those are the reasons I disagree with 09 rares being valued higher, I hope that explains it ok.

In regards to VRs, thank you for the link SolarSonnet. I am struggling to find any trades involving these pets on the forums, although I suppose we wouldn't find anything notable since they don't strike me as the kind of pets to be named in forum posts which makes them too hard to search for. My own pet groups aren't helpful either; I just checked and most of mine were adopted from the events or acquired as monthly swaps. I don't know what to do with the information about the 2016/2017 jump. Does anyone know what to think about this?

[Screemnigcheesepuff]

Started having a look through the archive just to see which pets are the vr from 2016/17, from what i can tell from a quick look through a lot of the vr pets from 2016 are a single outcome in a litter of rare outcomes. As far as i can remember these litters didnt have any particularly harder to get outcomes (but please correct me if i am wrong), so i would be interested in what happens once dec 18th comes this year, are these pets possibly just more on the cusp of the rarity gap, with same litter pets being just below? Or is there a significant difference making them definitely much further into the vr group?
(Sorry this will be a little image heavy)

Examples of 2016 pets that are vr in otherwise rare litters;
Halloween

Easter;


Space event;


Note; these two are the same litter with quite similar designs but the 1st is rare and 2nd one is vr


Exceptions to this;
An entire litter of vr bats
An ester litter of bunnies with only 1 rare outcome (second litter here)
Complete space event cat litter and rat litter

I am not the best at demand, but none of these immediately jump out at me as having particularly high demand outside of being an event pet & some very nice designs (i,e no golden gatcha dog equivalent here). Also please note i only had a look through the event pets as i dont have time atm to look through all the monthly pets as well, if this is helpful i can probably do it a bit later.

For 2016 all vr pets were part of a otherwise rare litter. My first thought looking at these was that i would not be surprised if these vr pets were more likely to be dropped this dec 18th and we may see a decrease in rarity, provided these pets are more on the cusp of rarity. Especially for the 2017 vr pets. Do i know how to factor this to c$ calcuations? No, sorry i am extraordinarily bad at stats. But i did think it was interesting to actually be able to visualise which pets we are talking about & how they relate to pets from the same timeframe.

(Also side note thankyou solarsonnet for adding images as i never click on links to google doc/charts ect)

[lil rascal]

I feel like we're all on the same page on the a lot of conversation topics here. There are still a few things we seem to have different opinions about, but that's not a bad thing. We should discuss them more and hope that other people join in with their opinions too c:

Regarding 09 rares, I don't think these pets are as valuable as some of the suggested chart formulas are indicating. The C$ worth thread had 09 UCs at a maximum of 15C$, and these pets are the 09 rares we are talking about here. So already my draft 2 chart has these pets at double their old values, but I feel that is justified by their new rarity tags. The 09 rare valuation from that thread is 35-55C$, but that range covers VR as well, and doesn't differentiate between early 09s (who are mostly ER) and late 09s (who are mostly VR and R). So those are the reasons I disagree with 09 rares being valued higher, I hope that explains it ok.

In regards to VRs, thank you for the link SolarSonnet. I am struggling to find any trades involving these pets on the forums, although I suppose we wouldn't find anything notable since they don't strike me as the kind of pets to be named in forum posts which makes them too hard to search for. My own pet groups aren't helpful either; I just checked and most of mine were adopted from the events or acquired as monthly swaps. I don't know what to do with the information about the 2016/2017 jump. Does anyone know what to think about this?

I think the main point of difference at the moment is the actual values we place on the older pets. Like you I see them as already having had a big price jump in their move from uncommon to VUC, EUC or rare or Rare to VR or ER. I think their new labels justify that price jump but not anything more. I wish more people would join in as I feel the few of us commenting here are just going to go round in circles. But maybe there’s a reason people aren’t commenting. Maybe they’re happy working their own values out based on the new rarities and have no desire for trading to be locked into new trading guides/rules?

I would think that the big jump would mostly be due to the number of people who have now been counted as inactive with those pets on their accounts. The CS record for the most users ever online is Dec 18 2017 so it isn’t due to a smaller community back then. I agree with Screemingcheesepuff that we might find that at least some of these drop after Dec 18.