Does anyone else feel like Demand is killing CS?

[Aurora Storm]

Personally I refuse to use any of the "new lists" - I really, really don't care what the time something changed rarities says about it's value, that's irrelevant to the trading market 9/10. I don't care what the demand on something is today because it will be different again in a week.
Really all I can do is try to use the old list until it completely falls apart and then what? I'll probably quit, and that's another large collection of pets taken out of circulation. And that's just me, there's bound to be multiple older users that feel like that since the rares list was such a big part of trading properly for years.

The crux is that demand will continue to rule unchecked unless there's something to keep it reasonable the way the rares list did. People have previously suggested new rarities but I feel like that would clutter things up even more so really I'm stumped.

You realise the old list was based heavily on demand values, right? So using it is the equivalent of using a demand values thread that was made a year ago; the values are outdated because like you said, demand changes very quickly. I'm really not sure what you're expecting to have happen here. You don't want rarity information because you don't think it matters. You don't want a demand list because it will change. These two things are what make up any sort of "list" you're saying you want to trade with. What's your issue with using this information that's already available to you and continuously being discussed and updated?

I really don't mean to sound argumentative or harsh, I'm just not sure what you're actually trying to propose here. These discussions have been about how to fix the demand problem in the current trading economy, and I'm sorry but complaining about the list being gone is not a productive way of solving the issue.

[amarok.]

But the thing is,the list didn't keep demand in check. It really already didn't. All those "high demand" pets (even excluding the old store pets) already went for more (often far more) than their list position's worth. People already traded those pets for overpay when the list was there. The amount of times I've seen posts along the lines of "this pet is [position] on the list, but with demand it can go for [more]", followed by a significantly higher value, could probably buy me a house if I got a dollar for each.

I'm kinda surprised to see so many posts describing unchecked demand as something that only got bad after the list retired when it's been one of the biggest and most common complaints people had about the trading scene on CS for the past few years.

precisely. it slowed it down, for sure, and because it was more widely accepted as representative of that pet's "worth" it was easier to argue your point, but a large part of why the list had to be taken down was the fact that demand had warped it out of shape. the market values for some pets just kept going up and up and the list was eventually edited to reflect those; it really didn't prevent the sort of thing we see all over the place here, just reduced the rate of it happening. it's true that demand is skyrocketing now there's nothing "concrete" written anywhere to ground people, but any list that reflected demand was probably doomed from the start.

that's not to say i don't miss the list - in a way i really do - but i have access to the information i need to make sure a trade is fair and i'm doing my best to help others on the ftt with that too.

[ariadne]

It's a fair point that the list didn't really keep demand in check, now that I think back on it that's true. I still miss the shred of objectivity it brought to trades, though.

What do you guys think could help keep demand reasonable?

[amarok.]

It's a fair point that the list didn't really keep demand in check, now that I think back on it that's true. I still miss the shred of objectivity it brought to trades, though.

What do you guys think could help keep demand reasonable?

just make sure that if you're going to give trading advice you do your due research and give both rarity values (not from the list, as that mostly just represented demand towards the end, just stuff that is purely based in fact/educated estimation, such as aurora's/lufikER's rarity change lists) and demand (i.e what it's been trading for over the last [insert appropriate time scale], doing your best to avoid mentioning anything that might be an outlier so we don't have another dragon cat pps situation) if it's appropriate. also be super careful not to mix up "worth" and "trades for", as they're two different things.

[ariadne]

It's a fair point that the list didn't really keep demand in check, now that I think back on it that's true. I still miss the shred of objectivity it brought to trades, though.

What do you guys think could help keep demand reasonable?

just make sure that if you're going to give trading advice you do your due research and give both rarity values (not from the list, as that mostly just represented demand towards the end, just stuff that is purely based in fact/educated estimation, such as aurora's/lufikER's rarity change lists) and demand (i.e what it's been trading for over the last [insert appropriate time scale], doing your best to avoid mentioning anything that might be an outlier so we don't have another dragon cat pps situation) if it's appropriate. also be super careful not to mix up "worth" and "trades for", as they're two different things.

Those are things that I, as a trader should do, but it doesn't really fix our larger demand problem since it's unlikely that anywhere close to the majority of people will go through all that effort. I know for a fact that I won't, I'm just going to step back from trading and quit when the list becomes too outdated to use and no other convenient alternatives exist.

I'm genuinely stumped, how do we fix the economy at large to keep demand from going off the charts without a generally accepted authority to appeal to?

[amarok.]

It's a fair point that the list didn't really keep demand in check, now that I think back on it that's true. I still miss the shred of objectivity it brought to trades, though.

What do you guys think could help keep demand reasonable?

just make sure that if you're going to give trading advice you do your due research and give both rarity values (not from the list, as that mostly just represented demand towards the end, just stuff that is purely based in fact/educated estimation, such as aurora's/lufikER's rarity change lists) and demand (i.e what it's been trading for over the last [insert appropriate time scale], doing your best to avoid mentioning anything that might be an outlier so we don't have another dragon cat pps situation) if it's appropriate. also be super careful not to mix up "worth" and "trades for", as they're two different things.

Those are things that I, as a trader should do, but it doesn't really fix our larger demand problem since it's unlikely that anywhere close to the majority of people will go through all that effort. I know for a fact that I won't, I'm just going to step back from trading and quit when the list becomes too outdated to use and no other convenient alternatives exist.

I'm genuinely stumped, how do we fix the economy at large to keep demand from going off the charts without a generally accepted authority to appeal to?

Notice how I said "if you're giving trading advice". We don't have much choice but to hope that using our influence as trade advisors will slowly help fix the issue, as people will generally accept what we say and it will probably become accepted over time, though I'm not sure how long that time will be. It's not exactly that much effort to quickly cross-reference with either of the rarity change data lists.
If you do not want to research rarity data when giving advice on the ftt it is probably better you do not comment at all as it may only contribute to the problem.

[FOUND VERDICT]

this reminds me of brexit hahah, it's like i didn't know what i was voting for.
i'm not sure anything will be able to change it at this point tbh, it's too big of a deal. i mean if there was at least a demand list so we could have some sort of guidance it would be very helpful, but skelebuns are going for like 10 nons (i didn't know people liked rabbits!) so i'm not really sure of it anymore, i don't think anybody is (enough to make a list).

the biggest reason for the bun going for crazy trades is the rarity change, and that he was placed way too low on the old rareslist in my opinion.
there actually wasn't that much demand for it before.

but it feels like people are slowly realising that those old store pets will be pretty much impossible to get (at least for people who don't have tons of trading fodder) in a couple more years, so they rather overpay now and have it done than trying to get one later.

[odin]

I'm kinda surprised to see so many posts describing unchecked demand as something that only got bad after the list retired when it's been one of the biggest and most common complaints people had about the trading scene on CS for the past few years.

100%, if you wanted a BA or a Raven, even then, you'd have to pay 5x the list placement, because "demand". Sunjewel and UR tiger were on the same line, and I don't think many people would have traded their tiger for a sunjewel alone. It's always been an issue, and it probably always will be. Because some pets will appeal to more people than others (dogs vs rats) and some designs people like more (Raven, pps dragon cat, LT Shima). It's something we can't get away from, but I do feel like it's something we could manage. I don't know HOW, but I think we can.
And tbh - I think the FTT kinda hinders demand control, because the people giving advice are giving their *opinion*. None of the responses are fact, they are opinion. But people take it as fact, and when it's stated over and over on the FTT (just like the list) "with demand x gets y", welp, no one will trade x for anything but y (or more you know cause demand ).

[Asvoria]

I'm kinda surprised to see so many posts describing unchecked demand as something that only got bad after the list retired when it's been one of the biggest and most common complaints people had about the trading scene on CS for the past few years.

100%, if you wanted a BA or a Raven, even then, you'd have to pay 5x the list placement, because "demand". Sunjewel and UR tiger were on the same line, and I don't think many people would have traded their tiger for a sunjewel alone. It's always been an issue, and it probably always will be. Because some pets will appeal to more people than others (dogs vs rats) and some designs people like more (Raven, pps dragon cat, LT Shima). It's something we can't get away from, but I do feel like it's something we could manage. I don't know HOW, but I think we can.
And tbh - I think the FTT kinda hinders demand control, because the people giving advice are giving their *opinion*. None of the responses are fact, they are opinion. But people take it as fact, and when it's stated over and over on the FTT (just like the list) "with demand x gets y", welp, no one will trade x for anything but y (or more you know cause demand ).

I think everyone understands that demand is not a good thing (unless you are the one to have the "demanded pet") but it is there and will ever be. It's not something we could control or reduce just like that, the only thing we can do is to be patient and wait for it to change.
By complaining about demand of the same old pets nothing is going to happen. The only thing that each and every one of us can do, it to strictly get their point across whilst trading and just refuse to overpay for that Shima or that BA. The more "fair" (non-overpaid) offers someone gets, the more likely they might realize that demand has died down and that they cannot ask for such a price anymore.
That also means that if you are holding an auction for let's say an August PPS, your autos shouldn't include OMGSR pets only or "your side should at least include on ex-list pet".

It is so easily to fall into the same habits that we tend to criticize if others display it, so I'd be real careful of how I want to tacke that demand problem personally.Try to be a demand role model yourself.

The FTT is another problem that just reflects higher-end trading and by giving advice based on rarity only, it would be a small start. Demand will always be applied and always influence a trade, but it will be much less if you find a common rarity ground that demand is applied to and not demand on top of an already demand-placed list pet.

[lil rascal]

And tbh - I think the FTT kinda hinders demand control, because the people giving advice are giving their *opinion*. None of the responses are fact, they are opinion. But people take it as fact, and when it's stated over and over on the FTT (just like the list) "with demand x gets y", welp, no one will trade x for anything but y (or more you know cause demand ).

I agree with this. While some of the demand is normal "I like this better than that", a lot of demand on CS is artificial demand from people giving advice based on their personal preferences and/or the repeated preferences of someone else. The reality is most new users would be perfectly happy trading their dog for a horse or rat, it's only when they stumble into the fair trade thread that they get drummed into them that "that's not fair due to demand". What people seem to forget though is just how many people are striving for a complete collection and you know what? That includes rats and horses etc. Add onto that the people who actually love and collect those linearts and suddenly you have quite a pool of people looking for those pets. As someone who has been working to complete my non-list rat collection I can honestly tell you it has been a lot harder to complete than something with such supposed low demand should be.