Rule Changes to Address Misleading Trades +Spam Guide Update

[TANKMEN]

MA/Non are not banned from being used personally. They just can’t be used as the official base units inside value guides anymore.

So no, MA/Non will not lose all meaning. People can still use them as personal shorthand when discussing value.

For example, if Horror lists a pet at 1H but you personallly value it higher, you could still say something like “worth about 1.5 MA to me.” That would generally be understood as a personal value, not a guide value, so you wouldn’t need to include a long explanation or disclaimer

What you wouldn’t do is label it as “1.5H” if the guide itself lists it at 1H, because that would be modifying a guide-defined unit while still presenting it as part of that system.

Horror also wouldn’t be allowed to define something like “1H = 1MA” inside the guide, since MA can’t be used as a guide unit anymore. Their units need to stand on their own.

Edit for the above line since I was wrong about this part. "The guide should clearly explain the new units and, if necessary, how they correspond to prior terminology so readers can adjust smoothly." (From first post)

If youre trading by Horror’s list and something isn’t specifically codified (like a TD difference), you can either follow the listed H value, or present your higher value as a personal one instead of adjusting the guide’s unit, or point out the discrepancy on the guide’s thread to seek a change in the listed value.

i'm sorry Winx, i really appreciate your time and care in responding to my questions and clearing the air here, but i feel that you really are not understanding me.

what i am trying to say is that we use MA/Non because it is part of Horror's guide. yes, we used it before, but now we use it in reference to that guide. my pet is worth 4 MA, so you can trade me two pets marked as 2 MA on Horror's list. that is the basic concept behind it.

but now that Horror is banned from using MA, as is every other guide, MA/Non do not have a meaning. they may do for a short amount of time, but the second anything about Horror's new value changes - pets are moved, their demand shoots up, value is inflated, etc. then MA/Non mean absolutely nothing. in this new system that the staff have brought on, there is no way for us to convey personal value (*in pet names, outside of discussion threads or etc.)

please give me a concrete example of how i can convey personal value without using MA/Non, because those terms will now become obsolete. if everyone is using Horror's 'H', how do i convey that i want more for this specific pet? i am not allowed to write 1.5H or 1H + 0.5 H as you've said, so what exactly am i supposed to do? even if i were to write 1.5 MA, what exactly does that mean if Horror can't say how much MA a H is? to me it just feels like this change was made, and this "solution" proposed, without actually thinking about it practically.

EDIT: just saw your edit (i didnt know quotes were autoedited?? what the heck LOL) and i guess if Horror is allowed to say that 1 H = 1 MA then so be it, we can continue to use MA in pet names. so i suppose the above doesn't really matter. but i still feel annoyed that this seemingly wasn't thought about. once again, we come back to the feeling of regular traders being punished for a group that never seem to get punished. its just kind of aggravating all around >__<

[Pallastronomy]

Wait, so if we and guide owners are allowed to use the old terms as benchmarks to adjust to the new ones, why on earth even ban the old ones at all? Isn’t the old terms being subjective the entire issue here?

[answrs]

extremely disappointed that staff have confirmed that this change is actively not doing anything to protect users against ninjas, and now all the scammers are just going to not add any messages to trades and apparently not have any consequences to scamming newbies whatsoever? because that is absolutely the message I am getting from your responses in this thread, Winx. I apologize if that was not the intent, but if so I am extremely confused why staff are writing off serial ninjas as perfectly acceptable as long as they don't say a word or name their pets, but putting the onus on everyone else, especially with punishing the select individuals that have been doing so much work for almost a decade for absolutely free to try and help the community.


I think I will be locking down my trade groups and solely trading for flight rising/very commons at this point. extremely disappointed that the whole of the sites trading system is being overthrown, meanwhile bad actors are passing by on technicalities that you could have locked down the loopholes they use with a change like this. instead, it's actively inviting scammers into being even less transparent about their activities and not helping new (or old/returning) users from being scammed at all.

[barbwirebrat]

every day i lose the motivation to check into CS and participate in trading and this has really just solidified it. i sincerely do not why the admins don’t make an official guide for pet worths. it’s like they’re actively trying to discourage trading which is the only true “gameplay” cs has to offer (aside from events i guess). why can you not crack down harder on scammers rather than punishing your playerbase by making trading more confusing and convoluted than it already is? what a genuinely awful update.

[reaptherisk]

-snip-

please give me a concrete example of how i can convey personal value without using MA/Non, because those terms will now become obsolete. if everyone is using Horror's 'H', how do i convey that i want more for this specific pet? i am not allowed to write 1.5H or 1H + 0.5 H as you've said, so what exactly am i supposed to do? even if i were to write 1.5 MA, what exactly does that mean if Horror can't say how much MA a H is? to me it just feels like this change was made, and this "solution" proposed, without actually thinking about it practically.

this is a good point actually. do you think you could give me an idea of an occasion when you'd want to value a certain pet higher than horror's guide? i can't really think of one now but im hearing the dilemma. i know it's common for say, a 1 MA store pet to beget overpay when someone is offering average to low demand fodder (like, maybe 1.3-1.5 MA), but idrk why you'd feel the need to say "i value my RR nontail as 12 MA" instead of 10 MA like it says on horror's guide. never really seen anyone (except for one or two people with not good intentions) do that type of thing

i don't think horror's guide has concrete values for really old TD lists. i dont see why you wouldnt be able to set a personal value in "H" units even if the guide doesn't have one, like saying your TD moonswirl is 35 H or something (no idea how much thatd actually go for but you get it lol). cause it's not actually lying about a value on the guide if the guide doesn't have data for it

[Pallastronomy]

extremely disappointed that staff have confirmed that this change is actively not doing anything to protect users against ninjas, and now all the scammers are just going to not add any messages to trades and apparently not have any consequences to scamming newbies whatsoever? because that is absolutely the message I am getting from your responses in this thread, Winx. I apologize if that was not the intent, but if so I am extremely confused why staff are writing off serial ninjas as perfectly acceptable as long as they don't say a word or name their pets, but putting the onus on everyone else, especially with punishing the select individuals that have been doing so much work for almost a decade for absolutely free to try and help the community.

These are exactly my feelings as well. The collective userbase is being punished and the people the punishment is intended for in the first place will continue to slip through the cracks because of inadequate moderation.

[TANKMEN]

-snip-

please give me a concrete example of how i can convey personal value without using MA/Non, because those terms will now become obsolete. if everyone is using Horror's 'H', how do i convey that i want more for this specific pet? i am not allowed to write 1.5H or 1H + 0.5 H as you've said, so what exactly am i supposed to do? even if i were to write 1.5 MA, what exactly does that mean if Horror can't say how much MA a H is? to me it just feels like this change was made, and this "solution" proposed, without actually thinking about it practically.

this is a good point actually. do you think you could give me an idea of an occasion when you'd want to value a certain pet higher than horror's guide? i can't really think of one now but im hearing the dilemma. i know it's common for say, a 1 MA store pet to beget overpay when someone is offering average to low demand fodder (like, maybe 1.3-1.5 MA), but idrk why you'd feel the need to say "i value my RR nontail as 12 MA" instead of 10 MA like it says on horror's guide. never really seen anyone (except for one or two people with not good intentions) do that type of thing

i don't think horror's guide has concrete values for really old TD lists. i dont see why you wouldnt be able to set a personal value in "H" units even if the guide doesn't have one, like saying your TD moonswirl is 35 H or something (no idea how much thatd actually go for but you get it lol). cause it's not actually lying about a value on the guide if the guide doesn't have data for it

hi, i gave this exact scenario a couple pages back, you can read it here: link

this sort of personal valueing is not at all uncommon in the TD market and does not inherently make someone a dodgy trader. i hope that gives some more clarity on the problem.

[crested gecko]

There are users with mountains of evidence against them being protected by this while everyone else is being punished

[winx]

MA/Non are not banned from being used personally. They just can’t be used as the official base units inside value guides anymore.

So no, MA/Non will not lose all meaning. People can still use them as personal shorthand when discussing value.

For example, if Horror lists a pet at 1H but you personallly value it higher, you could still say something like “worth about 1.5 MA to me.” That would generally be understood as a personal value, not a guide value, so you wouldn’t need to include a long explanation or disclaimer

What you wouldn’t do is label it as “1.5H” if the guide itself lists it at 1H, because that would be modifying a guide-defined unit while still presenting it as part of that system.

Horror also wouldn’t be allowed to define something like “1H = 1MA” inside the guide, since MA can’t be used as a guide unit anymore. Their units need to stand on their own.

Edit for the above line since I was wrong about this part. "The guide should clearly explain the new units and, if necessary, how they correspond to prior terminology so readers can adjust smoothly." (From first post)

If youre trading by Horror’s list and something isn’t specifically codified (like a TD difference), you can either follow the listed H value, or present your higher value as a personal one instead of adjusting the guide’s unit, or point out the discrepancy on the guide’s thread to seek a change in the listed value.

i'm sorry Winx, i really appreciate your time and care in responding to my questions and clearing the air here, but i feel that you really are not understanding me.

what i am trying to say is that we use MA/Non because it is part of Horror's guide. yes, we used it before, but now we use it in reference to that guide. my pet is worth 4 MA, so you can trade me two pets marked as 2 MA on Horror's list. that is the basic concept behind it.

but now that Horror is banned from using MA, as is every other guide, MA/Non do not have a meaning. they may do for a short amount of time, but the second anything about Horror's new value changes - pets are moved, their demand shoots up, value is inflated, etc. then MA/Non mean absolutely nothing. in this new system that the staff have brought on, there is no way for us to convey personal value (*in pet names, outside of discussion threads or etc.)

please give me a concrete example of how i can convey personal value without using MA/Non, because those terms will now become obsolete. if everyone is using Horror's 'H', how do i convey that i want more for this specific pet? i am not allowed to write 1.5H or 1H + 0.5 H as you've said, so what exactly am i supposed to do? even if i were to write 1.5 MA, what exactly does that mean if Horror can't say how much MA a H is? to me it just feels like this change was made, and this "solution" proposed, without actually thinking about it practically.

EDIT: just saw your edit (i didnt know quotes were autoedited?? what the heck LOL) and i guess if Horror is allowed to say that 1 H = 1 MA then so be it, we can continue to use MA in pet names. so i suppose the above doesn't really matter. but i still feel annoyed that this seemingly wasn't thought about. once again, we come back to the feeling of regular traders being punished for a group that never seem to get punished. its just kind of aggravating all around >__<

I think the main disconnnect here is that MA/Non were never exclusive to Horror’s guide, even if it may have felt that way if that’s the guide you personally use most.

Those terms existed before Horror’s list and even now they’re still used in different ways. Some players base them on old rares list values, some use them as personal shorthand, and many people reference successful trade data. Because they were never tied to a single guide, they aren’t losing their meaning now. They just can’t be used as the official base units inside value guides anymore.

From the example you gave:

If Horror lists a pet at 1H and you personally want more for it, you would present that as a personal value rather than modifying the guide unit. In that situation, you can still use MA/Non informally, since they are not banned for personal use.

If you want a basis for what MA/Non mean in your own trading, many players already use the Successful Trades thread as a reference point for that, rather than tying it to a specific guide.

The issue this rule is trying to address is exactly what you described happening in the past. One user would treat MA/Non as tied to Horror’s list, while another user was using them differently. That mismatch is what led to confusion and scam accusations. Separating guide units from general shorthand is meant to reduce that ambiguity, not remove people’s ability to express personal value.

Hopefully the above helped clear up your questions, but if not, I’ll keep trying to explain!

Wait, so if we and guide owners are allowed to use the old terms as benchmarks to adjust to the new ones, why on earth even ban the old ones at all? Isn’t the old terms being subjective the entire issue here?

Because the issue wasn’t the old terms existing, it was that they were being used as shared guide units even though different people interpreted them differently.

During the transition, it’s reasonable for guide owners to reference the old terms just to explain what their new unit is replacing, so readers can adjust. But they can’t continue using them as the base units long-term, since the goal is for each guide’s terminology to stand clearly on its own.

extremely disappointed that staff have confirmed that this change is actively not doing anything to protect users against ninjas, and now all the scammers are just going to not add any messages to trades and apparently not have any consequences to scamming newbies whatsoever? because that is absolutely the message I am getting from your responses in this thread, Winx. I apologize if that was not the intent, but if so I am extremely confused why staff are writing off serial ninjas as perfectly acceptable as long as they don't say a word or name their pets, but putting the onus on everyone else, especially with punishing the select individuals that have been doing so much work for almost a decade for absolutely free to try and help the community.


I think I will be locking down my trade groups and solely trading for flight rising/very commons at this point. extremely disappointed that the whole of the sites trading system is being overthrown, meanwhile bad actors are passing by on technicalities that you could have locked down the loopholes they use with a change like this. instead, it's actively inviting scammers into being even less transparent about their activities and not helping new (or old/returning) users from being scammed at all.

I’m sorry if my replies gave that impression, because that isn’t the intent and it’s not what this change is meant to communicate.

This update is not saying ninja trading is acceptable or that serial ninjas won’t face consequences. Staff do review patterns of behavior, especially when users appear to be targeting newer players. As noted in the announcement, those situations can still be acted on.

What this rule addresses is a specific evidence gap that has made some cases difficult to enforce in the past. When shared terminology was vague, it was harder to clearly show when someone was being intentionally misleading versus simply valuing differently. Reducing that ambiguity helps strengthen our ability to act when deceptive behavior is part of a broader pattern.

I alsowant to reassure you that this isn’t meant to punish the community members who have created guides and helped others for years. Those contributions are valued. The goal is to better distinguish between good-faith use of those resources and situations where they were being misused to create confusion.

[TANKMEN]

yeah, i apologize Winx, im not sure if its on me for not communicating it properly or not, but i dont feel my concern is being understood. ultimately my concern is this: with the banning of MA/Non in guides, MA/Non will become obsolete and not mean anything, and users will not have any metric to determine personal value in things such as pet names. you keep saying we can value things personally, which is great, but you still did not give me an example of how i am supposed to do so without MA/Non being a factor. i understand what you're trying to say, but it does not answer my problem nor my concerns about what i think is going to happen. the FTT and successful trade threads are not going to continue using MA/Non if it cant be referenced to something, they will move to Horror's new value, or something similar. MA/Non only means something because its backed up by years of empirical trade data where players used it as a valuing system.

maybe im wrong, maybe users will somehow figure out how to telepathically convey MA/Non values to one another without any form of central guide(s) to convey what they mean or what pets are worth in relation to eachother, LOL. but for now, im not optimistic, and am just annoyed. but thanks for your time, i wont take any more of it. i still stand my ground that this decision was extremely poorly thought through, and i doubt that will change. cheers.