Rule Change targeting offsite bullying/harassment

[cαtαstrσphe]

I do think that this is a good idea, however, how can we prove that the person saying harmful things is the same person on ChickenSmoothie? Especially if they know that it can be punished now, nothing stops someone from, say, changing their name to a CS user they dislike and bullying someone else to get that user in trouble.

I do admit this is a fear of mine, but I think it's somewhat easy to deduce if it's just someone playing foul and faking an identity. I trust the staff to pay close attention to this. And in the case it did happen, I'm sure staff would take proper action to punish whoever it was lying. Easily as bad as actually harassing someone offsite, imo.

There are many ways to do this, similar nicknames, certain words that are used, preferred emojis, certain habits.. And if it is a serious case, even emails or ip addresses that staff on said platforms can access. Usually someone knows who it is who's being the bully, sometimes it just takes the courage to name them to the proper authorities.

But at the end of the day.. You have nothing to fear if you've got nothing to hide. c:

[marmoris]

There are many ways to do this, similar nicknames, certain words that are used, preferred emojis, certain habits.. And if it is a serious case, even emails or ip addresses that staff on said platforms can access. Usually someone knows who it is who's being the bully, sometimes it just takes the courage to name them to the proper authorities.

But at the end of the day.. You have nothing to fear if you've got nothing to hide. c:

I am well aware; my wording was just incorrect. What i should have said was “It would have a concern of mine”. ^^
I don’t engage in CS based communities anymore and haven’t in a long while, so really it doesn’t affect me. But it’s a good rule change because I hear of and see so much harassment happening offsite.

However I will say this is not an issue of “but if you have nothing to hide” as it could happen to literally anybody, innocent or not.. That feels a bit ignorant.

[Shinryu]

Just to address this concern real quick:
You're completely right that amending the rules like this means there is a new opening for people to abuse it to get others into trouble, and rest assured that even before this announcement, that has been taken into consideration when people used screenshotted evidence in their reports.
It's something we're aware of, and something we'll be just as wary about, we won't pretend that it's not a concern.

But I also wanna throw in real quick that at the core of the issue, what this rule change is about isn't to find new ways to punish people for what they do off-site - it's about adjusting our rule framework to make it clear that we are willing to accept off-site behavior as evidence when necessary.
Previously, CS had a much more hands-off approach towards the way people used off-site communities to interact with the community on CS. And that has resulted in cases where the perpetrators of harrassment have been completely transparent, but staff had their hands tied because "it's not on CS".
It essentially provided something of a loophole for people to incite harrassment towards others, knowing they would get away with it even if their usernames were attached, as long as it was off-site.

We've felt that it was necessary to change this, to say that from now on sufficient off-site evidence can be taken into consideration, because we believe that it is fair game when those off-site actions so significantly affect the target's day-to-day experience on CS.

There is a great deal to be considered in the wake of this, and we're grateful for everyone who points out concerns and potential issues that could arise.



As for the rest - I would like to hope that people understand that the necessity of moderating this thread is not indicative of the moderating user's opinion or rule on the issue that was presented.
It simply boils down to this: Making posts on here about things that are already the subject of reports does nothing to further the investigation of said report, and doesn't provide any useful help for dealing with the problem at hand. It merely creates unrest that more often than not distracts from focusing on the actual issue.

We're sorry if reports are addressed slowly, because as mentioned before, Admin-only tickets and reports are visible to and worked on by such a small number of people (but this admin input is absolutely necessary especially in cases where laws come into play).
We do understand the frustration that comes with this and with the wait.
(And unfortunately, yes, even the rest of the team can be spread thin at times; real life hasn't been kind recently and it reflects on our online lives too.)

Just remember that what the users hear from the team via ticket responses and forum posts comprises only the significant parts of dealing with a report or ticket. Discussion of the case at hand happens behind the scenes and in privacy, so a lack of response to a report isn't indicative of the report not having been touched yet or worse, abandoned.

Though we do hear you on the issue that it creates the feeling that things are falling under the table, and there's certainly room for figuring out how we can keep people reassured that something is being looked at within that frame of confidentality.
(For what it's worth, if you are worried that a ticket/report has been forgotten, do feel free to send a new message in that ticket to poke and ask "can you just let me know real quick if you're still on this", and someone can shoot you a quick "yes we are".)


Thanks to everyone for helping us with refining the rule change :)

[i<3 wolves678]

What personally bothers me about this rule is that a lot of the “offsite bullying” I have seen is in regards to actual problematic users either potentially/actually exposing minors to dangerous content, being blatantly homophobic/transphobic, or in general being someone who causes a lot of issues in the community (scamming, ninja trading, etc.)

Many of these things get reported to staff by the users complaining and are often let slide, and that’s why people are angry. CS is considered a safe space for many minors, but seeing users get away with harmful actions without rectification simply for being popular or well known is upsetting to say the least. This website means a lot to me and has helped me get through a lot of difficult times growing up, I only want the best for it and for other users to have the same good experiences I have had, but in more recent times, it feels like things have changed a lot. I don’t want this message to be taken the wrong way, I just want what’s best for the website moving forward, and feel like this needed to be said.

[magnapinna]

What personally bothers me about this rule is that a lot of the “offsite bullying” I have seen is in regards to actual problematic users either potentially/actually exposing minors to dangerous content, being blatantly homophobic/transphobic, or in general being someone who causes a lot of issues in the community (scamming, ninja trading, etc.)

Many of these things get reported to staff by the users complaining and are often let slide, and that’s why people are angry. CS is considered a safe space for many minors, but seeing users get away with harmful actions without rectification simply for being popular or well known is upsetting to say the least. This website means a lot to me and has helped me get through a lot of difficult times growing up, I only want the best for it and for other users to have the same good experiences I have had, but in more recent times, it feels like things have changed a lot. I don’t want this message to be taken the wrong way, I just want what’s best for the website moving forward, and feel like this needed to be said.

agree.

[Celozon]

What personally bothers me about this rule is that a lot of the “offsite bullying” I have seen is in regards to actual problematic users either potentially/actually exposing minors to dangerous content, being blatantly homophobic/transphobic, or in general being someone who causes a lot of issues in the community (scamming, ninja trading, etc.)

Many of these things get reported to staff by the users complaining and are often let slide, and that’s why people are angry. CS is considered a safe space for many minors, but seeing users get away with harmful actions without rectification simply for being popular or well known is upsetting to say the least. This website means a lot to me and has helped me get through a lot of difficult times growing up, I only want the best for it and for other users to have the same good experiences I have had, but in more recent times, it feels like things have changed a lot. I don’t want this message to be taken the wrong way, I just want what’s best for the website moving forward, and feel like this needed to be said.

I would like to clarify something here, this is not directed only at you, I've seen several people interpreting the situation this way. Some of the other staff have already said this but it keeps getting brought up.

Before this announcement we did not take off-site actions into consideration because we do not have jurisdiction outside of CS, and so long as users followed CS rules on CS, they were allowed to stay. That means that if you or anyone else previously reported someone for off-site behavior and was told we would not do anything about it, that has now changed as of this announcement, and we may do something about it now. There seems to be an assumption that because we didn't do anything about these users before this announcement, that we won't now, and that is not the case.

And regardless of all of that, contributing and participating in off-site harassment of CS users isn't the way to go. Even if those users are 'problematic', that doesn't give you a free pass. It is still bullying regardless of who it is directed at. Participating in such a thing is harmful to CS and its users, whether you believe it to be or not. So yes, this rule also opens up people involved in off-site harassment to be punished, but that is not sole objective of it.

We truly do want to make this site a better place for out users, that is why this rule has been established. So that we can start taking action against people who are a danger to our users, even if they didn't do anything directly on-site.

As ZEL and others mentioned, you may not see us directly respond right away, but that doesn't mean we haven't seen and are not investigating on the back end. Personally, I have never seen anyone get a free pass for being popular. Our decisions in tickets are formed as a group, not by a single user. Personally I do not care who is or isn't popular in the adopt community or who is buddies with staff or any of that. If I saw another staff member actually being biased about something I'd definitely tell them. But I've been a GM for a year and a half and I've yet to see that. We also do not stalk specific users waiting for them to make a mistake. People like to forget that we have our own lives outside of CS, and we are free to enjoy CS outside of our moderating duties. We aren't going to spend our free time refreshing someone's profile so we can nitpick what they are doing. If you really do have a concern over us being unfair about something, send in a ticket asking for a second opinion, and we can be sure to re-examine what happened and make sure the decision we reached was correct.

//again just a disclaimer that this isn't directed specifically at you but just users as a whole who have been voicing these opinions.

[i<3 wolves678]

Thank you, I’m glad to have a bit more clarity on what this change means, I hope that if going forward with this intention, it can do more good to the community than the harm I was initially worried about.
I understand CS staff have a lot on their plate outside of the website, but I think this kind of communication to users is very important so people feel their opinions are heard and know what is going on.

I’d like to clarify that while I have definitely seen harassment of problematic users, there is equal parts people who are simply trying to inform and warn others or even politely explain to the user themself why this behavior might be upsetting or dangerous. I hope these kind of comments don’t get swept under the rug as being abusive, as I feel it’s important users are able to discuss such things in a civil manner, but I fully understand why action would be taken against up right derogatory comments.

Without naming names or pointlessly vaguing, I have personally witnessed instances of popular users getting away with things, but would like to give the benefit of the doubt that it was either completely coincidental or fell under the previous guidelines regarding off site content, and it’s not important now as long as these rules are upheld in the future.

Overall, I really hope these new rules are implemented well and bring improvements to communication in the site and community.

[Rosemoon]

I noticed something mentioned here a few times that I was keeping in mind too; I think when it comes to someone making a report about someone breaking CS rules, people would feel a lot more comfortable if they received a direct response back stating "thank you for bringing this to our attention we will respond accordingly" so that we at least know that our grievance was addressed. That's why so many people are saying they feel ignored and left in the dark when reporting these issues, because there are times where we don't get any proper response back stating "hey we read your message, thank you for letting us know we'll take a look at what's going on" just an automated message stating "someone will read your message eventually". And I think that's causing people to be unsure of whether or not a situation has been dealt with and causing users to be uncomfortable and feel unsafe not knowing if their voice was heard. I feel like just a simple message stating that their grievance was heard would ease a lot of people's minds, no need to disclose any specific info about what the situation is or what actions will be taken, just a small "hey we read your message, don't worry we'll look into it" like I see some mods do with other reports.

[Simon]

I noticed something mentioned here a few times that I was keeping in mind too; I think when it comes to someone making a report about someone breaking CS rules, people would feel a lot more comfortable if they received a direct response back stating "thank you for bringing this to our attention we will respond accordingly" so that we at least know that our grievance was addressed. That's why so many people are saying they feel ignored and left in the dark when reporting these issues, because there are times where we don't get any proper response back stating "hey we read your message, thank you for letting us know we'll take a look at what's going on" just an automated message stating "someone will read your message eventually". And I think that's causing people to be unsure of whether or not a situation has been dealt with and causing users to be uncomfortable and feel unsafe not knowing if their voice was heard. I feel like just a simple message stating that their grievance was heard would ease a lot of people's minds, no need to disclose any specific info about what the situation is or what actions will be taken, just a small "hey we read your message, don't worry we'll look into it" like I see some mods do with other reports.

I think this is a fair point, I'll talk with the team about being better about doing this. Sometimes we get 10-30 tickets about the same exact situation so it can be tedious to reply to every single one, but it's understandable that you would want to know your ticket was received and is being worked on.

If you think your ticket has been forgotten or has fallen through the cracks, you are always welcome to send a follow-up reply.

[Asvoria]

I think this is a fair point, I'll talk with the team about being better about doing this. Sometimes we get 10-30 tickets about the same exact situation so it can be tedious to reply to every single one, but it's understandable that you would want to know your ticket was received and is being worked on.

If you think your ticket has been forgotten or has fallen through the cracks, you are always welcome to send a follow-up reply.

I remember myself being quite dissapointed about never receiving answers to a couple of reports that I had sent in. I already assumed that those had been reported multiple times (and I guess that happens alot if reports aren't directly associated with forum posts that can only be reported once), but it would have been nice to have just heard a simple: "We've looked at your report and have taken action according to our judgment of the situation" once you've closed the case. This doesn't really need involve any specific notation of what specific steps you intend to take, it just helps us acknowledge that this has been looked through. Otherwise I'll find myself vaguely doubting that my report was of any use or concern to the admins.

I deeply encourage and support the expansion of CS user reports! Recently I've discovered that of all the sites I ever joined in my teens, only CS really stuck with me and I especially associate that decision with the community and the feeling of a safe haven. Being an adult now, I often wonder why I still enjoy the plain and soft environment at this site and every time I can only conclude that it must be due to the restriction of content. In a world where everyone threatens to be overruled by broad criticism and undirected temper tantrums, I find myself happy and content with the comfortable atmosphere of CS. With those new rules, harassment and hate of other sites won't be able to slip into our CS bubble! <3