*Site suggestion* Kinder staff messages

[Audrey_Bee]

Not sure if I'm allowed to bump but it's off the front page so...Bumping 👉🏻👈🏻

[Aaron✦]

I would disagree also with the idea that if we received a nice message politely then we wouldn't understand that were breaking a rule, I think some credit needs to be given to our community that we wouldn't read a message saying:
"hey, please make sure you're not Bumping your post too much, only bump when it's off the first page. Thank you in advance, have a lovely day!"
And go 'awww, how cute. Anyway. *bump bump bump*' lol.

Sorry, my point wasn't that users wouldn't understand - it's that I've experienced that if the message is overly nice they simply ignore it on purpose, which I think is because it isn't firm.

I would also say that considering just how many people have posted here and who I have spoken to in the past that all agree staff messages are far too firm, it's not a small issue that a couple of people are reading messages in an incorrect term, but is an actual problem that a lot of people feel needs a change. We're not then going to break rules for the fun of it just because we finally have a message treating us like people.

Yeah, I completely agree that some of the messages shared here aren't acceptable. We're definitely taking a look at this. Unfortunately though, as I said some people do just break rules for the fun of it because the message wasn't clear or firm enough. So it's definitely a balance we have to strike.

As I said, I don't think these cutesy messages should be put in place everywhere. If someone is being outwardly homophobic for example, then sure, be stern! But if someone has broken a rule *once* and doesn't require a board warning and its clear they don't have a clue they're breaking rules, we feel that all that is required is a gentle reminds of the rules. Then have at it if they keep breaking them haha

We're all people, we all want to be treated as such and with respect! A lot of us respect the staff and how much they do behind the scenes and how much they keep the site safe! It should just be done with a gentler touch to keep CS feeling welcome and warm, and to not scare away the new folk 😂

On a basic level I agree with everything being said here and already strive to do so, personally, but recognise that this might not be the attitude across the board. It already is the idea when we're trained that simple mistakes are given a gentle reminder, and that's how I'd describe what I give. I think a large part is that we're trained to be professional (which is why I feel smiley faces etc. are inappropriate for moderation messages) and that professionalism is intimidating.

that sample message could be used as a template for communicating with users: "hey; please; thank you; have a nice day". friendly professionalism is part of a more humane approach in services these days and it hurts me that people still find it being weak.

We do actually use a template that consists, basically, of "[What was done wrong]; please [thing]; thanks."
In my opinion the template we use is enough, but it seems like cases being discussed here are cases where that template is being strayed from.

[autoRegenesis]

Gonna go ahead and be the odd one out here and say that I actually genuinely like when staff messages are very blunt and to-the-point. Obviously I don't want them being cruel or anything, but if I messed up and get a message that says, "You did this thing. This thing is against the rules. Do not do it again," that's very clear-cut and easy for me to understand. There's nowhere for the message to get muddied, or for me to go, "wait, is this just a faux pas or genuinely a rules violation?" If it was cluttered with a whole bunch of platitudes and niceties I'd be more likely to misunderstand what was being said. Staff aren't my friends and I don't want them to act like they are--not in a "I dislike staff!" way, just that I prefer my authority figures act like authority figures, even if they're just pet site authorities.

Also, speaking from my experience as (essentially) a junior mod on a different site (not CS), people 100% reacted different when given a no-nonsense warning compared to a friendly and lighthearted one, even for the exact same infraction. Users who got given a warning that sounded like a warning generally were, in my experience, less likely to repeat the unwanted behavior than ones who got a "Hey-just-so-you-know" warning.

Not to say the other opinions here are somehow invalid! I'd just figured I'd give my take as well, since it's different from the apparent majority ^^

[beestie]

just a general reply so i'm not quoting a ton of people;

i don't think most people necessarily have a problem with the authority/firmness aspect of staff messages per say, i think many people feel spoken down to - that some staff seem to have a 'holier than thou' tone/mentality. you can be firm and get your message across while speaking to the other party as an equal, because despite the color of your username on this site we're all still people.

i, and i think many others, have no issue with mods acting as an authority, that is their job here, but when staff act too big for their britches, that's when everyday user opinions on staff are soured. if mod mentality is truly "we're better than you", that's an issue. that results in people feeling belittled and less-than. and unfortunately, modding positions breed mentalities like that because there are people who will feel better than everyone else, and it's something that needs to be addressed. members should NOT be receiving warnings calling them pretentious and rude, that makes your userbase not like you in any way, shape, or form.

if a mod messages me, regardless of whether it's a warning or not, my previous interactions with staff have caused me to want the interaction to be over as quickly as possible because every mod message feels condescending now, no matter what's in the message or how it's written - and i'm sure i'm not the only one who feels this way given the opinions in this thread already.

obviously, not all mods have the aforementioned mentality - i've gotten to know a couple who are genuinely lovely people that i do enjoy speaking to. but it's prevalent enough that you have a multi-page thread of people saying they have trouble speaking with staff because they, essentially, feel spoken down to/less-than. i don't really believe authority is the root issue here, it's the disconnect between everyday users and staff.

[Celozon]

I have pretty much the same feelings as Aaron so I won't re-hash everything he said, but I did also want to add that in particular I don't like the thought process of assuming that most or nearly all users on CS are adults. CS has always been geared towards kids, and while its true that many people who joined as kids still continue to play today, a lot of people also stopped playing as they got older (which is not going to be actively noticed), and new (younger) players join who are not adults. I don't know the site's age statistics (in fact, no one knows because ages are only tracked for US residents) but certainly there are still plenty of minors on the site. I can understand why it might feel like most players are adults, especially if someone tends to only hang out in areas of the forums that are mainly adults, but I still encounter plenty of younger players myself and just don't think its a good basis for reasoning that moderating should be changed with the assumption it'll be sent to adults.

I also wanted to point out that there is a factor of individual perception here too. That sometimes no matter how we phrase a message its still only going to be text on a screen and the reader may end up interpreting it in the bad light anyway. We have a very diverse userbase here, people who prefer blunter and to-the-point messages, and people who prefer a lot of pleasantries attached. Some people have a harder time interpreting fluffy language (myself included honestly) and knowing if its being serious or condescending/sarcastic. Thats part of why I've always preferred trying to keep my messages purely informational. I am sure some interpret them as quite blunt, but the purpose at its root is to inform. X rule was broken, this is what the rule says, this is what it means, this is what you can do to follow it. I typically end my messages with an invitation to the user to contact staff via help ticket if they have questions or want to know more about a rule. My point being, individual interpretation is going to vary widely, and I think that moderators as well as users should keep themselves aware of that in this, and that blunt doesn't necessarily = rude. As I said, I certainly agree that there are cases in the past where our messages could be improved, but I agree with Aaron that there is a range of efficacy there.

just a general reply so i'm not quoting a ton of people;

i don't think most people necessarily have a problem with the authority/firmness aspect of staff messages per say, i think many people feel spoken down to - that some staff seem to have a 'holier than thou' tone/mentality. you can be firm and get your message across while speaking to the other party as an equal, because despite the color of your username on this site we're all still people.

i, and i think many others, have no issue with mods acting as an authority, that is their job here, but when staff act too big for their britches, that's when everyday user opinions on staff are soured. if mod mentality is truly "we're better than you", that's an issue. that results in people feeling belittled and less-than. and unfortunately, modding positions breed mentalities like that because there are people who will feel better than everyone else, and it's something that needs to be addressed. members should NOT be receiving warnings calling them pretentious and rude, that makes your userbase not like you in any way, shape, or form.

if a mod messages me, regardless of whether it's a warning or not, my previous interactions with staff have caused me to want the interaction to be over as quickly as possible because every mod message feels condescending now, no matter what's in the message or how it's written - and i'm sure i'm not the only one who feels this way given the opinions in this thread already.

obviously, not all mods have the aforementioned mentality - i've gotten to know a couple who are genuinely lovely people that i do enjoy speaking to. but it's prevalent enough that you have a multi-page thread of people saying they have trouble speaking with staff because they, essentially, feel spoken down to/less-than. i don't really believe authority is the root issue here, it's the disconnect between everyday users and staff.

Could you give an example of what acting 'better than users' would be? If I'm being quite honest, it often feels to me that this ends up being more of a personal interpretation of moderator actions than anything specific. I can't say that I think I'm better than anyone else, and I can't say I've ever heard any other moderator express that kind of sentiment either. If anything I sometimes feel like the users aren't considering that we are people too and not some monolith or robots doling out warnings (as many posts in this thread suggest).

This is just my own interpretation, but I do think some people are going to be prone to not liking the people who enforce rules cause well, it kinda sucks to get warnings and its easy to dislike the person who gave you one. I can't really blame anyone for that. That said, if you get to know a couple moderators and decide they aren't so bad after all, then what make you think that wouldn't apply to all the moderators? It seems like some being judged through personal non-moderation interactions and others being interpreted only through moderation interactions. I just think its odd to lay all the blame on the moderator side in this. Pretty much any job that involves enforcement already has a heavy bias against it in media and the general populace (think of things like HR departments, compliance officers, etc usually being framed as sticklers for the rules and poking their noses 'where it doesn't belong'). I do think that it stands to reason that some users may already come into these situations assuming moderators will be mean before ever interacting with them, and confirmation bias can do the rest. I'm not saying this is the case every single time, but I don't think it should be ignored either.

I could certainly see people interpreting me as thinking I'm better than them just cause I don't post much or talk to people outside of doing moderating stuff, and my moderation messages might seem blunt. I am not super sociable (I've got social anxiety disorder, I feel extremely awkward and stilted trying to make small talk), I try and be very open to people approaching me and talking to me, but I don't post on the forums much outside of moderating and answering questions because uh, I'm just not very good at it. I actually did used to post more before becoming a GH and then GM, and keep thinking I should post more in discussion threads, but mostly don't cause I'm worried users will feel intimidated by my presence and I'll kill the conversation ^^' So like I said, I certainly don't think I hold any 'better than users' sentiments, but thats not going to stop other users from interpreting my actions like that if they are already prone to doing so.

[minecraft]

my only input right now is that i feel like the poll at the top of this post could do with a major rework.

the poll options are currently (in answer to "what would you like to see"):
- "kinder messages from staff"
- "less strict punishments for multiple minor warnings"
- "all of the above"
- "none, the staff are perfect"

there's a lot of possible (and likely very real) feelings users may hold about the mod team that sit between feeling like everything is perfect and feeling that they're strict or unkind, and while it'd obviously be impossible to cover every possible emotion with ten poll options, having three out of the four provided options be your own opinion verses one polar opposite of 'staff are perfect' doesn't feel constructive.

i don't think the poll is providing useful information to anyone as it stands; especially if those with nuanced feelings other than the options the poll makes room for for don't feel like this is a space for them and leave before they can share their thoughts.

having said that, i want to make it clear i do think this post is overall helping hold a discussion this website needs to have- i fully agree that mods should treat people kindly with concise and useful responses, and that users interpretations of staffs intent is often not what's being put forward.

[beestie]

Could you give an example of what acting 'better than users' would be? If I'm being quite honest, it often feels to me that this ends up being more of a personal interpretation of moderator actions than anything specific. I can't say that I think I'm better than anyone else, and I can't say I've ever heard any other moderator express that kind of sentiment either.

while no warnings i've received personally have CLEARLY sported a "better than users" mentality (though the warning that one user a couple pages back got calling them 'pretentious' and 'rude' definitely fits the bill given the attitude and lack of respect), i'm sure there are currently or have been staff in the past that have a power trip due to the fact that they are a mod on a rather large yet niche corner of the internet - whether you know for a fact that someone feels that way or not. it is inevitable with the nature of your volunteer work. there will always be bad actors that develop, coming from someone who has been a mod smaller scale forums throughout my years. if it can happen on a small scale forum, it can happen here. but that is all i'll say on this given it's not totally on topic to the suggestion at hand.

If anything I sometimes feel like the users aren't considering that we are people too and not some monolith or robots doling out warnings (as many posts in this thread suggest).

i again reiterate my point on the disconnect between staff and the userbase. if some of the only interaction most users are receiving from staff is the templated, flat warning messages, staff begin to feel less human to users. and i think this mindset will only grow as social media is moderated by automated systems more and more. cs staff should want to harbor a comforting and close-knit relationship with their userbase, because we AREN'T being moderated by robots, we're being moderated by people. i absolutely understand the need for firm messages, but users will see staff as robots if they receive warning messages that feel no different from the automated moderation of instagram and the platform formally known as twitter.

That said, if you get to know a couple moderators and decide they aren't so bad after all, then what make you think that wouldn't apply to all the moderators? It seems like some being judged through personal non-moderation interactions and others being interpreted only through moderation interactions.
-snip-
I do think that it stands to reason that some users may already come into these situations assuming moderators will be mean before ever interacting with them, and confirmation bias can do the rest. I'm not saying this is the case every single time, but I don't think it should be ignored either.

the exchanges i had with a couple mods that i feel comfortable speaking to WERE moderation interactions - only difference is that they spoke to me like a person. i should have clarified that in my previous post, but i didn't want it getting too longwinded - that was my mistake.

the mods i find to be 'not so bad' were kind, personable, and VERY APPARENTLY open to helping me - i did not feel like i was being a burden to them. i had never asked for clarification on a warning before but after becoming so frustrated with the lack of clarity in cs rules, i needed some transparency - and the transparency i got made it clear that i was not bothering these moderators, they were more than happy to help me, and they obviously saw me as an equal. i only go back to these couple of mods when i need help on something because they are the only mods that haven't felt, dare i say, robotic and flat in their responses to my questions. (for clarification, i have asked for clarification/assistance regarding other things since from other mods and they have not felt nearly as personable/kind/open to helping me as an equal)

this is a personal anecdote, and i'm sure you and every other user on this site can claim to have different feelings, experiences, and views when it comes to staff interaction, but i am merely pointing out that it is most likely possible to make the users that might find you intimidating, mean, and non-personable realize that you are not that, even with the presence of confirmation bias.

I just think its odd to lay all the blame on the moderator side in this.

i'm focusing on the moderator side because that is the topic at hand here - how MODS interact with users. were the topic more user-centric, i'd focus more on what you brought up before - how users treat and think of staff.

I could certainly see people interpreting me as thinking I'm better than them just cause I don't post much or talk to people outside of doing moderating stuff, and my moderation messages might seem blunt. I am not super sociable (I've got social anxiety disorder, I feel extremely awkward and stilted trying to make small talk), I try and be very open to people approaching me and talking to me, but I don't post on the forums much outside of moderating and answering questions because uh, I'm just not very good at it. I actually did used to post more before becoming a GH and then GM, and keep thinking I should post more in discussion threads, but mostly don't cause I'm worried users will feel intimidated by my presence and I'll kill the conversation ^^'

i mean this very genuinely, celozon, no malice or condescension - please try and post to discussions and even games more (and this goes for all staff). i understand the fear and worry of killing a conversation with intimidation, i would probably feel the same way if i was in your shoes, but i keep going back to the disconnect of staff and users. perhaps users feel intimidated because they only ever see warnings posts/messages from you (the royal 'you', not you specifically per say) and have trouble differentiating the REAL you from your more moderation-heavy interactions. you are also a person outside of your mod duties, and i think it's important for users to see that and feel like they can trust you. give them a reason to feel comfortable speaking to you, whether that be in forums or regarding concerns about warnings. i want to be able to feel comfortable speaking to staff, regardless of the topic, but most have not given me the ability to feel that way. you seem like a wonderful and intelligent person, celozon, and i'd love to see you in the forums more so i have the ability to see you as even more of a person and less of something to be purely intimidated by - and that goes for ALL staff as well. lessen that disconnect between staff and users - interact more on a non-warning basis. i think that would go a long way for ALL moderators.

this will be my last post here just so i don't bog up this thread, but if you'd like to continue this conversation personally, feel free to dm me!

[peachy!]

i 1000% agree. i was given a warning for something that i did do, and something that i didn't. when i explained the thing i did do apart from what i didn't, the whole warning was rephrased. it was clear the context wasn't fully looked at the first time, and that's a major issue.

-snip-

wrote:
if a mod messages me, regardless of whether it's a warning or not, my previous interactions with staff have caused me to want the interaction to be over as quickly as possible because every mod message feels condescending now, no matter what's in the message or how it's written - and i'm sure i'm not the only one who feels this way given the opinions in this thread already.

-snip-

editing to second this.

[Audrey_Bee]

my only input right now is that i feel like the poll at the top of this post could do with a major rework.

the poll options are currently (in answer to "what would you like to see"):
- "kinder messages from staff"
- "less strict punishments for multiple minor warnings"
- "all of the above"
- "none, the staff are perfect"

there's a lot of possible (and likely very real) feelings users may hold about the mod team that sit between feeling like everything is perfect and feeling that they're strict or unkind, and while it'd obviously be impossible to cover every possible emotion with ten poll options, having three out of the four provided options be your own opinion verses one polar opposite of 'staff are perfect' doesn't feel constructive.

i don't think the poll is providing useful information to anyone as it stands; especially if those with nuanced feelings other than the options the poll makes room for for don't feel like this is a space for them and leave before they can share their thoughts.

having said that, i want to make it clear i do think this post is overall helping hold a discussion this website needs to have- i fully agree that mods should treat people kindly with concise and useful responses, and that users interpretations of staffs intent is often not what's being put forward.

Oo thank you for constructive criticism! To be honest I was just looking for either "do you want things to change" or "is everything fine the way it is" but since this is becoming a more constructive conversation with staff getting involved too (which I highly appreciate), I may change to poll.

Are there any suggestions you have to make it more accessible to everyone? ^^

(I'll reply to the other messages soon!)

[Simon]

Thank you for bringing up this suggestion. Moderating a large website can often be a tricky balancing act and when it comes to PM'ing/Warning users, we always have to weigh the importance of being clear and concise with not trying to sound overly blunt. That being said, we understand that internet tone has evolved over the years so we are going to look into modifying the wording of some of our replies to be more mindful of tone in the future.

As an Admin I do want to make it clear that if you do think that a mod has crossed a line into being rude, we encourage you to send a help ticket/report and Admins will review it. If you send a help ticket at Admin level, it will only be visible to the Admin team if that is a concern for you.

I also want to make clear that lying about something a mod has said isn't appropriate. While it is completely valid to feel upset by the wording/tone of a PM or warning - there were a few cases of users fabricating/embellishing exchanges with staff which is not okay. Again if you do feel like you had an exchange that crossed a line please send a ticket!

Since we are aware of this suggestion and are discussing/taking steps internally I am going to lock this thread now.