Do you think word minimums help or hurt literate RPs?

[ratsy]

Soo, I haven't been on this site in a while, but I used to be an avid RPer here. Coming back, it seems to me almost as though this site has fallen into two extremes. There's either the "one sentence a post" RP or the "400+ words a post" RP.
Now, I'd always tended to seek out semi-lit and lit RPs, as the level of writing, characterization, etc tended to be much higher.
At the same time, I've found that I'm 100% against word minimums. Why? Because good prose shouldn't be about being long, imo.
There's a reason "prose rules" and "weasel words rules" tend to be about cutting down sentences, not adding more on-- because effective writing tends to get to the point.
During the last year or so, I took a couple of creative writing courses, and I was amazed about how much of advice came down to "cut down." I think that trying to force in 400 words into a post that may simply be dialogue or even a transitional post is pointless and even counterproductive to good writing.
At the same time, I do believe some posts deserve lots and lots of words. There's going to be complicated scenes in every good RP,
and there's going to be character heavy scenes where a lot of development and writing takes place. I just think that, in a good RP,
some posts ought to be long and others can be short. I may write 1000 words describing a scene that's deeply important to my character, and then, a couple posts later, write 150 words worth of a transitional post.

TL; DR: I believe literate RPs should be about writing standard, not writing amount.

What do you guys think? Do you see benefit to word minimums? Let me know why or why not!

[Burrito Bunny]

To be honest I have never really seen word minimums be enforced by the owner. Although I haven't been active in that area of the site for a while, when I was into lit group rps that's how things were.

I agree with you. The word minimum, should it actually be enforced, seems counter productive. It encourages boring writing instead of purposeful prose. It also discourages activity, which is part of the plague surrounding literate rps: they die quickly.

I think it would be fine to suggest something like "I'd like the average post to be around 500 words." This gives a good idea of how long the owner wants things to be. There is certainly some room between the one sentence rps and the 1000-2000 word ones, so it's good to give a rough estimate. It can be fusterating to the owner if they intended to have a very detailed rp but no one is meeting their expectations. However, giving a strict minimum does seem to be a counter productive act in my opinion.

[ratsy]

To be honest I have never really seen word minimums be enforced by the owner.

Oh, I never knew they wouldn't-- mostly, I'd see word minimums and get scared off, because of that line of thinking. That's something to keep in mind, haha.

[raey]

I am a bit late to this, but I hope you don't me leaving my personal opinion too - after all I think it's a very good discussion.

To be honest I feel very split regarding word minimums. For beginners for example I find them more than counter-productive. As a beginner when you are just starting and trying to find your way it's hurtful in my personal opinion to give them a word minimum. After all it would lead to them to force themselves to write enough to hit the minimum and I am positive that can easily take away the fun. It is far more important that a beginner can write just as much as they want and can, in order to keep the fun-factor for them. Literacy comes with the time when you discover how to work with your characters and making your own experiences of what works and what not.

For literate roleplays yet - and I think also for private roleplays like 1x1s you should at least agree to a certain "level" - including both quality but also quantity. I don't mean that it has to be enforced (and like Burrito Bunny already said I barely see anyone really enforcing word minimums in the end - only in very drastic occasions i.e. someone wants users to write at least 500+ words, but one only writes maximum two-three sentences. But otherwise word count expectations are mostly handled rather flexible.).
But I find it important that the writers involved in a roleplay are moving around the same level. While I agree that literacy isn't just about quantity but more quality - the amount of what is written in a post still matters in my opinion. From my own experience I can say that I really enjoy if my partner writes around more or less the same amount as I do as it gives a good chance on reacting to their post and also learning more about their character and how they see the world. I for my parts get easily frustrated if someone replies in very short posts and you have to kinda wiggle your way around in order to get up a proper reply.
Maybe I am a bit biased though. As a writer who mainly write stories by now; so I tend to write long and detailed, probably more than it would be necessary for a roleplay lol.
I have found my one perfect partner who moves around the same level as I do and there it doesn't matter if a post is only around 500 words or ends up with over 1000. We both move around the same word count automatically in our replies, but it still happens that maybe a reply is shorter or longer one time or another.

In the end I believe if an owner adds a word minimum to their roleplay it should more be seen as a rough outline of what is expected and to ensure that the participants are at least roughly the same level. Sure, just because someone is able to write their 500+ words it does not automatically mean that they also are able to deliver a certain quality. But after a lot of people don't take it well if you tell them that they writing isn't what you expected or want for your roleplay - introducing word minimums is a way to only attract those who are more likely to deliver a certain level of literacy without hurting feelings by accident.

If you are ever worried if you'd be a fit for the roleplay and the word minimum is throwing you off - I recommend to message the owner and talk to them about their expectations and share your worries. I am sure that no one is going to kick you from their roleplay just because your replies are sometimes not reaching the word minimum.

[AtlasHyperion]

I think that it's important to tell people, though. If you put your rp in the advanced/semi/lit/lit+ category, people are gonna know to write a bit more, but, on the other hand, some individuals might take it as a sign that they don't have to write a lot. Seems hard to miss, but some do. I've been in and run rps where I didn't have a min/max word count or anything about post length, and they've gone well, but I've also been in/run some where I need to enforce a rule about length, though I usually go for "try and post at least a decent sized paragraph" instead of "you need at least 500 words and blah blah blah nitpicking and such", because that's kind of what word count rules are.

Here are two paragraphs from Harry Potter, both on the same page:

Mr. and Mrs. Dursley, of number four, Privet Drive, were proud to say
that they were perfectly normal, thank you very much. They were the last
people you'd expect to be involved in anything strange or mysterious,
because they just didn't hold with such nonsense.

The Dursleys had everything they wanted, but they also had a secret, and
their greatest fear was that somebody would discover it. They didn't
think they could bear it if anyone found out about the Potters. Mrs.
Potter was Mrs. Dursley's sister, but they hadn't met for several years;
in fact, Mrs. Dursley pretended she didn't have a sister, because her
sister and her good-for-nothing husband were as unDursleyish as it was
possible to be. The Dursleys shuddered to think what the neighbors would
say if the Potters arrived in the street. The Dursleys knew that the
Potters had a small son, too, but they had never even seen him. This boy
was another good reason for keeping the Potters away; they didn't want
Dudley mixing with a child like that.

Both of these are good paragraphs. They both convey the intended message. They both make sense, and inform the reader of new information. Now, if I were to participate in an rp that requires the second paragraph instead of the first, that wouldn't be very fun, would it? The first paragraph is just as good as the second, just a different length.

And besides, shorter stories can be better than longer ones. I read Siddhartha recently. That's a rather short book, not even 200 pages. It was very good. I've also read the entire Twilight series. Each book is several hundred pages. I didn't much like any of them. (Please note that this is not Twilight-bashing, just an opinion.) Quality and quantity do not even remotely go hand in hand.

But back to word count rules, I think they're silly.

If you want to create a rule about post length, tell people to do at least a paragraph. Short, medium, decently-sized, long, any adjective you want. Purple? Sure. But nitpicking about exact numbers is just a big push factor.

[ratsy]

I think that it's important to tell people, though. If you put your rp in the advanced/semi/lit/lit+ category, people are gonna know to write a bit more, but, on the other hand, some individuals might take it as a sign that they don't have to write a lot. Seems hard to miss, but some do. I've been in and run rps where I didn't have a min/max word count or anything about post length, and they've gone well, but I've also been in/run some where I need to enforce a rule about length, though I usually go for "try and post at least a decent sized paragraph" instead of "you need at least 500 words and blah blah blah nitpicking and such", because that's kind of what word count rules are.

Here are two paragraphs from Harry Potter, both on the same page:

Mr. and Mrs. Dursley, of number four, Privet Drive, were proud to say
that they were perfectly normal, thank you very much. They were the last
people you'd expect to be involved in anything strange or mysterious,
because they just didn't hold with such nonsense.

The Dursleys had everything they wanted, but they also had a secret, and
their greatest fear was that somebody would discover it. They didn't
think they could bear it if anyone found out about the Potters. Mrs.
Potter was Mrs. Dursley's sister, but they hadn't met for several years;
in fact, Mrs. Dursley pretended she didn't have a sister, because her
sister and her good-for-nothing husband were as unDursleyish as it was
possible to be. The Dursleys shuddered to think what the neighbors would
say if the Potters arrived in the street. The Dursleys knew that the
Potters had a small son, too, but they had never even seen him. This boy
was another good reason for keeping the Potters away; they didn't want
Dudley mixing with a child like that.

Both of these are good paragraphs. They both convey the intended message. They both make sense, and inform the reader of new information. Now, if I were to participate in an rp that requires the second paragraph instead of the first, that wouldn't be very fun, would it? The first paragraph is just as good as the second, just a different length.

And besides, shorter stories can be better than longer ones. I read Siddhartha recently. That's a rather short book, not even 200 pages. It was very good. I've also read the entire Twilight series. Each book is several hundred pages. I didn't much like any of them. (Please note that this is not Twilight-bashing, just an opinion.) Quality and quantity do not even remotely go hand in hand.

But back to word count rules, I think they're silly.

If you want to create a rule about post length, tell people to do at least a paragraph. Short, medium, decently-sized, long, any adjective you want. Purple? Sure. But nitpicking about exact numbers is just a big push factor.

You put that very well! Honestly, I agree with basically everything you're saying here.
Not too big on the fluffy, purple style that a lot of rp'ers seem to have, but that's a whole 'nother issue.

[arabella !!]

To be honest, when a RP owner mentions the word minimum in their roleplay it helps me a bit to figure out their expectations. I get anxious if they don't, since I rather have a little guide line than nothing as a reference. Although, it also throws me off when the minimum is very specific and confusing.

[Horologium]

IMO word minimums tend to make RPers use purple prose. I mean if your post is about your character climbing off a horse, how are you going to fit such a short scene in 500 words?

[SamuraiBetta]

I think it helps