Ƭнαт's Ɖeвαтαвℓe... || My Ɖeвαтe Ƭσριcs (comments welcome)

[katniss,]

❝It is better to debate a question without settling it than to settle a question without debating it.❞


This is reserved for my debate posts. I take a semester-long Issues and Debate class, and I will post topics/debates here I have done there, or just on my own time.


A little bit about me? Well, I am ___ years old and live in America. I go to highschool in an area that is generally liberal, but is very conflicting in personal views. My parents are devoute Christians, and so am I, and we both are strong Liberals. Despite my own conflicting views with my parents on certain subjects, specifically politics and government decisions, we generally get along quite well. I was forced into debate class by my parents, but now I love it so much. I reccommend you all to try one! I was awkward and nervous at first, since I am better at persuasive essays, but now I feel so much more confident speaking out loud my opinions. Anyways, my godparents are a lesbian couple with four children, just so you get the image of the type of liberal I am ;3; If I need to add more to this section later, I will. But in a nutshell, I am a Liberal devoute-Christian highschool girl.



I welcome comments and constructive criticism on my actual writing.

I welcome suggestions on what you want to see me give my opinion on.

If you want to debate/refute my arguments, private message me.

[katniss,]

Homosexuals and Gay Rights Megapost
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Argument I Will Counter:
The Bible Condemns homosexuality, like in this section: -insert Bible quote-.

The Bible has been taken out of context many times to support a variety of different beliefs and opinions- such as slavery, inequality for women, stoning, religious persecution, etc. Just to get this out there, the Bible never states that homosexuality is a sin, and never says that being gay is an abomination. Please note, I am a Christian myself, I am merely notifying fellow Christians {and non-Christians} of what the Bible does, and doesn't, say and mean about homosexuality.

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

This passage was incorrectly translated from the Greek word "arsenkoite", which was mistranslated as "homosexuals", when in fact, the Greek term "arsenkoite" means something different. Arsenkoite means "male prostitute", which sells or uses their body for sexual pleasures premaritial or extramritial. The root of the mistranslation has often caused a misunderstanding in this part of the Bible.
A similiar translation of the same scripture is this:

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

The "abusers of themselves with mankind" was a mistranslation of arsenkoite.

....

Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

I am using the King James version of this translation, simply because the New Living / Living Bible translation twisted the actual words of the Bible to explicitely say "do not practice homosexuality, it is a detestable sin", which is not what the actual Bible said. Now, where to begin...
This whole Leviticus "abomination" thingy is actually not taken into context. Here is a quote from a website, which right now the link is unavailable since the website is no longer up and running, but I was able to snag a few passages from it before it disappeared.

Leviticus 18:6 reads: "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female. It is an abomination." A similar verse occurs two chapters later, in Leviticus 20:13: "A man who sleeps with another man is an abomination and should be executed." On the surface, these words could leave you feeling rather uneasy, especially if you are gay. But just below the surface is the deeper truth about God -- and it has nothing to do with sex.

Leviticus is a holiness code written 3,000 years ago. This code includes many of the outdated sexual laws we mentioned earlier, and a lot more. It also includes prohibitions against round haircuts, tattoos, working on the Sabbath, wearing garments of mixed fabrics, eating pork or shellfish, getting your fortune told, and even playing with the skin of a pig. (There goes football!)

So what's a holiness code? It's a list of behaviors that people of faith find offensive in a certain place and time. In this case, the code was written for priests only, and its primary intent was to set the priests of Israel over and against priests of other cultures.

-snip-

What about this word abomination that comes up in both passages? In Hebrew, "abominations" (TO'EBAH) are behaviors that people in a certain time and place consider tasteless or offensive. To the Jews an abomination was not a law, not something evil like rape or murder forbidden by the Ten Commandments. It was a common behavior by non-Jews that Jews thought was displeasing to God.

Jesus and Paul both said the holiness code in Leviticus does not pertain to Christian believers. Nevertheless, there are still people who pull the two verses about men sleeping together from this ancient holiness code to say that the Bible seems to condemn homosexuality.

For the fact I don't want to needlessly repeat myself, but to wrap things up, an abomination =/= a sin.

However, if you are insisting that thanks to this, homosexuality is an abomination, might I point out that osprey, eating shellfish, mixed fabrics, cotton clothing, fortune tellers, eagles, and other random things are quite forbidden, for they are terrible "abominations" if you take everything into consideration.

....

And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination.

The reason why this quote is so often misinterpreted, is because people are not realizing the era in which this was written.
Back in the times that this was established, women were lesser than men according to society. Women were mens' slaves essentially, and were property to the male of the marriage. So a male sleeping with another male insulted the males themselves, because then they were thought of as "lowly" as women were thought of. Insulting another male was an abomination. So taking everything into consideration, during the time, homosexuality was an abomination simply because it insulted males themselves- not the actual act was sinful, however.
A literal word-by-word translation of this section, however, goes a little like this: "If a male sleeps with another male (homosexuality) on a woman's bed, both of them have commited an abomination. Their blood will be on their own heads." (National Gay Pentecostal Alliance).

....

Genesis 19 describes how the two angels who accompanied God went on to visit the Sodom. The city had just experienced warfare (Genesis 14:1-2) and was probably on high alert to forestall future conflict. Lot welcomed the angels into his house. They had been sent to warn him that God was displeased with the wickedness of the city's residents and might exterminate all human life over a large geographical area, including the city of Sodom. All of the people from the city gathered around the house and demanded that Lot send the strangers out to the mob so that they might "know" the angels. Sensing evil intent by the citizens of Sodom, Lot refused. He implied that what the mob intended to do was "wicked."

Many people think the "main sin" of Sodom and Gomorrah (mainly Sodom) is the act of homosexuality, when, however, the evil in the city was the act of homosexual rape. Emphasis on the rape part. The mob who wanted to "know" (by "know", they mean have sexual intercourse) the angels that were staying at Lot's house, were intending to rape the angels of God. It was only a coincedence you could say that the mob were males. But now, people just absorb the idea that the sin of Sodom, or the Sodomites, was homosexuality, and not homosexual rape in specifics.

....

There shall be no w***e of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel.

KJV {King James Version}.
I chose the KJV for this part since its what most people use.
However, this is a weaker argument, because it refers in the more original versions, to cult prostitutes, rather than actual monogamous homosexual relationships. The other versions say "There shall be no cult prostitutes of the daughters of Israel, neither shall there be a cult prostitute of the sons of Israel." Many versions {NLV, ESV, LB, RSV, etc} show that the basis of this part of the Bible is to condemn not homosexuality in general, but homosexual {and hetereosexual} prostitutes. Even more specifically, it refers, when taken in context, to pagan prostitutes who commit ritual sex.

....

For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence [sic] of their error which was meet.

This interpretion is quite hazy.
If you interpreted it word-by-word, the actual interpretation would be something like this: hetereosexual (wo)men who did homosexual acts were sinning, and by inferring, homosexual men who did heterosexual acts were sinning. Men, or women, who went against their fundamental nature- of being heterosexual or homosexual- were sinful. Basically, you are what you- straight or gay- and if you do sexual acts in which you are not, then you are sinning. Get it?

....

Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine.

The part I bolded was misinterpreted from the originals in this KJV. The original term was arsenokoitai was mistranslated in its definition, as I said ealier. Arsenokoitai doesn't mean "men who defile themselves with mankind" but it means male prostitutes instead.

....

The man said, 'This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh'...For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife and they will become one flesh.

I have been noticing a few people bring up that "God made Adama and Eve, not Adam and Steve".
However, nowhere does God actually say homosexuality is wrong. Not in Genesis, not in the NT.
Now, God made man and woman to appease everyone- homosexual and heterosexual people alike. He made Adam and Eve, so the possible combos could be: Adam + Eve, Adam + Steve, Eve + lady friend {yeah, I can't think of a witty girl name that sounds like Adam, y'all}. Not to mention, this plain and simplistic "man + woman" veiw doesn't account for the approximately 3-10 million intersexual people- who are neither male or female.
Also, the part that says "be fruitful and multiply" gives Adam and Eve specific rights to inbreeding... which is not physically possible for the generations to continue without many more complications than we have now.
Below I have listed a few situations in which being fruitful and multiplying doesn't work:
- sterile population {can't reproduce}
- people who remain virgins or don't have kids their whole lives
- post-reproductive age (wo)men who are sexually active
- people with genetic defects who choose not to have children
- gays and lesbians and the rest of the LGBT community / gene pool
Please note, God's plan was for Adam and Eve to reproduce and have children to populate the Earth. By implication, God's plan was for some of Adam and Eve's descendents, but not all of them. Genesis material applies to the majority of sexual behaviors, but not all of them.

....

... at the beginning, the Creator 'made them male and female' and said 'For this reason man will leave his father and mother, and be united with his wife; and the two will become one flesh.

This argument is very similiar to the Genesis argument, HOWEVER, this was taken out of context of the Bible.
In this passage, this quote is directly tied to Jesus's response to a man asking if it is unlawful for a man to divorce his wife. Jesus replies with the above statement. Therefore, this is absolutely unrelated to homosexuality. Jesus responded to what the man asked, not to homosexuality itself.
{Weirdly ironic since many Christians get divorces, but whatever...}

....

Conclusion
By no means does this post undermine what you believe, fellow Christians. Just to let you know, if you are Christian, and you have quoted Genesis, Levicitus, and any Old Testament statements in which homosexuality is "condemned", you are shooting yourself in the foot to be blunt. Christians do not believe in the Old Testament, so any of those passages are not important to our beliefs. Might I also add, that those passages, when correctly interpreted, do not condemn homosexuality?

I find the fact that God not condemning homosexuality way more amazing than God condemning homosexuality. Isn't it just beautiful that our God loves everyone, and doesn't condemn people based on their sexual preferences with other, consentual adults? So what if two males love each other? So what if two females love each other. Love, and let love. I really mean it. Leave the judging to God, stop your protests against two loving people who happen to be of the same sex, and just focus on yourself.

While I am Christian, this post was not meant to be pro-Christian, or pro-Atheism, or pro-anything-else, but rather simply breaking down the Holy Bible. Remember what the Lord said {to fellow Christians}:
"And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her." (John 8:7)
"Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law." (Romans 13:8)
"Hatred stirs up strife, but love covers all offenses." (Proverbs 10:12)

Wouldn't you much rather have a religion known for its love and acceptance in the glory of God, than a religion of hate and persecution of others?

....

Bibliography

http://www.soulforce.org/article/homosexuality-bible-gay-christian
The page is no longer present. I quoted them above, but it seems to be their post was very helpful.
http://www.religioustolerance.org
This website was a very staple part of my megapost. They are a truly wonderful website!
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibl.htm
Specicially this article on the above website.
http://www.bidstrup.com/marriage.htm
Just a great website post worthy of inter-web applause.