animal rights vs animal welfare

[PARK]

Cruelty is inherent to the wild, but it is not inherent to captivity. Yes, people buy meat from factory farms and I believe that should change. Because I support animal welfare. When I say that domestic animals are lucky, I am referring to some pets and local farms (honestly most pets aren't taken great care of either) because middle earth was arguing against humane local farms as well. But yes most people in the US buy cheap meat from factory farms, just like most people buy cheap produce harvested from slave labor in poorer countries. This is a deeper issue that goes beyond animal rights and animal welfare. Smaller farms are forced to up their prices and struggle to make a living. People aren't paid enough and people are exploited. Most of us are practically forced to support animal abuse and human exploitation. This isn't just an animal welfare or rights issue, it is also a human rights issue.
And I do plan to raise animals and support local farms when I am better off.
The amount of dogs in the world is another big welfare issue, agreed. I believe proper and enforced regulation should be put in place for breeders to help reduce the population of dogs and cats, as well as efforts to remove strays off the street. Because I support animal welfare.

I really liked what you said about many of these things going beyond rights vs welfare. Many of the things that vegans bring up for arguments are not black and white. People don't get paid enough to make the better choices for the environment, themselves, etc. They have to buy things that causes suffering, human and animal. Much of the crops made in the US are harvested by illegal immigrants that don't get paid enough to eat every day. People understand for the most part that these things, factory farms, slavery, etc. but the shift to the better options is going to be slow because of the way we have built our society. This argument is not black and white and people need to understand that and address the greys. So thanks for starting to do that.

actually yeah this is a great point, too! capitalism is slavery, slaves can't choose freedom. honestly if someone living in the western world (ie usa and europe) can afford to go vegan and be healthy (read: not malnourished), while also being able to afford paying bills, theyre privileged. that's it. there's no argument there and if anyone tries i'll lose my mind.

the freedom to eat what and when you want, part of what people call food security, is generally a privilege of people who are not living in poverty.

[Bilaz]

I believe more in animal rights myself but I want to address a different argument than the whole debate on if it's ok to eat animals or not. Because I personally believe animals have the right to not be killed, and that breeding pets isn't a great thing when there are so many that need rescuing, but that's a topic that can be debated over and over and I'd rather touch upon something else.

My main problem is that to *really* be an animal welfarist and eat what your ethics are... Then the fact is that the only reason there is enough space to even *get* enough organic animal products to eat is because factory farms exist on the side and other people buy them. They are also hidden in processed foods and restaurant foods, while most people think of the chickens while buying eggs they don't think of chickens when ordering a cake that looks good.

Honestly if someone wasn't vegan but only ate like local pole caught fish/self hunted stuff and stuff from their own garden because the argument was that that's the best way to get full nutrition without contributing to monocultures and big farm machinery which harms animals, the environment and people
I'd be pretty impressed

But most people don't, and most people don't have that option. So the fact remains that the only way to go forward, no matter if you believe in welfare or rights, is to dramatically lower animal product consumption. We simply do not have enough land to raise all the animals currently organically

[alfiq]

@Bilaz i definitively see your point. especially considering poultry in america, i personally find it's practices disgusting to the point i'd not consume chicken products if i lived there other than from small farms with high welfare standards. and yes, we should be consuming less meat. (in the end, most kinds of food are made in the name of profit. ends up harming both workers and animals)
on the other side, dairy is an industry i don't have much issues with welfare wise. cows need to be happy to produce good milk. it's the workers i worry about.

a big issue i see in both animal ag and crop ag is that livestock and produce are raised/grown in places they should not be, which harms the enviorment. and iirc we do have enough land, but we're producing surpluss of food even if we fed everyone and iradicated world hunger, we'd still be producing too much. food waste is a huge issue.

i live on land that is not ideal for crops which ends up making me eating meat more enviormentally friendly than me eating vegetables grown on the other side of the globe. and i know personally a lot of farmers are trying and fighting to make things more sustainable, me included.

also on the subject of raising animals organically, it's honestly a rather misleading term and often harms welfare rather than improves it.

i.e under organic certifications if antibiotics are prescribed by a vet you are not allowed to withhold them to keep your certification, you must give treatment but then sell the animal to a non-organic farm. which can cause farmers to do exactly what they're not supposed to do to do by withholding antibiotics and hoping animals get better, because organic certification for livestock is expensive, difficult to maintain, and sometimes crucial for farmers to be able to sell their product at a sustainable price (which is bad for welfare)

or treat the animal and then quickly sell it off to a conventional farm, which could cause either better or worse welfare.

or, cull heavily for disease. which does improve the long term health of herd but its not exactly ideal when diseases are treatable.
+ there is a waiting period after an animal has been treated with antibiotics, ensuring there will be none in the meat, milk or eggs.

and yea, most people don't know where their food comes from or how its produced. i try very hard to inform people. but it's an issue that goes extremely deep. poor people often can't afford to buy foods that are sustainable. some people do not have access to the proper information. it's an issue in in the entire food industry as a whole, not just animal ag. kinda seems like i'm getting away from the subject matter, but it's honestly all connected.

[косатка]

I believe more in animal rights myself but I want to address a different argument than the whole debate on if it's ok to eat animals or not. Because I personally believe animals have the right to not be killed, and that breeding pets isn't a great thing when there are so many that need rescuing, but that's a topic that can be debated over and over and I'd rather touch upon something else.

My main problem is that to *really* be an animal welfarist and eat what your ethics are... Then the fact is that the only reason there is enough space to even *get* enough organic animal products to eat is because factory farms exist on the side and other people buy them. They are also hidden in processed foods and restaurant foods, while most people think of the chickens while buying eggs they don't think of chickens when ordering a cake that looks good.

Honestly if someone wasn't vegan but only ate like local pole caught fish/self hunted stuff and stuff from their own garden because the argument was that that's the best way to get full nutrition without contributing to monocultures and big farm machinery which harms animals, the environment and people
I'd be pretty impressed

But most people don't, and most people don't have that option. So the fact remains that the only way to go forward, no matter if you believe in welfare or rights, is to dramatically lower animal product consumption. We simply do not have enough land to raise all the animals currently organically

I was gonna reply to this earlier, but @alfiq gave a good response.

Overall, the western lifestyle is a lifestyle of surplus, which is unsustainable. And this wouldn't be a big issue if the planet wasn't overpopulated with people. Farming crops can also harm the environment through deforestation, irrigation, and pesticides.
Pretty much our whole way of living in unsustainable. It is not unique to meat.

[Bilaz]

@Bilaz i definitively see your point. especially considering poultry in america, i personally find it's practices disgusting to the point i'd not consume chicken products if i lived there other than from small farms with high welfare standards. and yes, we should be consuming less meat. (in the end, most kinds of food are made in the name of profit. ends up harming both workers and animals)
on the other side, dairy is an industry i don't have much issues with welfare wise. cows need to be happy to produce good milk. it's the workers i worry about.

a big issue i see in both animal ag and crop ag is that livestock and produce are raised/grown in places they should not be, which harms the enviorment. and iirc we do have enough land, but we're producing surpluss of food even if we fed everyone and iradicated world hunger, we'd still be producing too much. food waste is a huge issue.

i live on land that is not ideal for crops which ends up making me eating meat more enviormentally friendly than me eating vegetables grown on the other side of the globe. and i know personally a lot of farmers are trying and fighting to make things more sustainable, me included.

also on the subject of raising animals organically, it's honestly a rather misleading term and often harms welfare rather than improves it.

i.e under organic certifications if antibiotics are prescribed by a vet you are not allowed to withhold them to keep your certification, you must give treatment but then sell the animal to a non-organic farm. which can cause farmers to do exactly what they're not supposed to do to do by withholding antibiotics and hoping animals get better, because organic certification for livestock is expensive, difficult to maintain, and sometimes crucial for farmers to be able to sell their product at a sustainable price (which is bad for welfare)

or treat the animal and then quickly sell it off to a conventional farm, which could cause either better or worse welfare.

or, cull heavily for disease. which does improve the long term health of herd but its not exactly ideal when diseases are treatable.
+ there is a waiting period after an animal has been treated with antibiotics, ensuring there will be none in the meat, milk or eggs.

and yea, most people don't know where their food comes from or how its produced. i try very hard to inform people. but it's an issue that goes extremely deep. poor people often can't afford to buy foods that are sustainable. some people do not have access to the proper information. it's an issue in in the entire food industry as a whole, not just animal ag. kinda seems like i'm getting away from the subject matter, but it's honestly all connected.

Thanks very much for your detailed response!
I have to say I agree 100% with the thing about crops, which is why I really wish I could grow more of my own vegetables. However I neglected to mention I'm a veterinary medicine student quite far in the study. About the crops, the issue is that the farm animals we have now are bred to be so highly productive that they need high energy food to properly grow. For high energy food, just leftovers from crops won't do. I've seen fields and feels of corn grown for animal feed, far more crops go into animal products than you'd ever get when you ate them yourself. Nobody can avoid eating some crops, so it's best to avoid animal products.

As for the organic thing... Yeah you're completely right, I have to say I was just being a bit lazy in my explanation. In Europe, aside from the antibiotics thing, organic comes with very strict rules about space, quality of feed and enrichment, which all dramatically increase welfare. I was referring to those requirements and being a bit lazy in doing so. Using one term instead of 'certification of high quality welfare standards' xD. So I will change what I said and say instead we don't really have space to raise animals to the quantity we're currently consuming *and* giving them a high quality life. Because the only reason there are enough animal products to consume currently is because factory farming still exists.

You're very right about poverty and lack of information though. I agree with that.

Another thing that bothers me about animal agriculture is the fact that every animal needs to be slaughtered at one point, either to be eaten for meat or because they're no longer profitable for eggs or dairy. While again I think every animal has the right to live, I also feel that... Every human has the right to not work in a slaughter house. They are often poor workers with very little choice, and it's psychologically veryyyy damaging to be surrounded by that much death

[alfiq]

@Bilaz you're right in that we grow too much corn and soy, and i'm very pro feeding animals pasture and byproducts from human grade crop.
it's also important to remember in the majority of growing soy, what gets fed to livestock is soy meal which isn't very nutritious for us humans (the more profitable part of the bean is the oil, which is almost only for human consumption.) corn is a bit of the same deal, most of it goes to ethanol, while stalks and other byproducts are fed to animals. what livestock eat is almost never human grade, and mostly by products from human food crop production.

when it comes to slaughter, i guess it's just different viewpoints. i don't see death as a bad thing, as long as the animals has had a good life where they have the freedom to express natural behaviours, freedom from pain, disease, fear and when their time comes, a good (painless, animal is not aware its happening) death.
as a sidenote, with dairy cows most i've seen have been productive animals till very late in their life. for example and a pretty fun fact, the oldest cow to have lived reached a freakish 49 years old (when most dairy cows aka holsteins, age catches up with em faster due to size and the amount they produce which is a problem. old holsteins reach 10 - 13, sadly a lot of em don't reach it which is why i think we should be outcrossing more and investing in healthier milking breeds) and had 39 calves, the last at 41 years old.

and yea, theres sometimes rampant worker abuse in slaughterhouses which is a issue especially with immigrants. however i've met slaughterhosue workers who do enjoy their jobs and have a very good work enviorment, it really varies from country to even individual slaughterhouses. (of course not saying it can't be damaging physiologically, but when done correctly i've hardly heard of people negatively affected by it)
i'm also of the opinion if you eat meat, you should know the process and have seen it, and if you're uncomfortable with it you should reconsider meat if you're able to.

thanks for the clarification on what you meant by organic by the way! :) also i'm happy to clarify any of my points if i'm not clear somewhere! im a bit tired atm

[Bilaz]

@Bilaz you're right in that we grow too much corn and soy, and i'm very pro feeding animals pasture and byproducts from human grade crop.
it's also important to remember in the majority of growing soy, what gets fed to livestock is soy meal which isn't very nutritious for us humans (the more profitable part of the bean is the oil, which is almost only for human consumption.) corn is a bit of the same deal, most of it goes to ethanol, while stalks and other byproducts are fed to animals. what livestock eat is almost never human grade, and mostly by products from human food crop production.

when it comes to slaughter, i guess it's just different viewpoints. i don't see death as a bad thing, as long as the animals has had a good life where they have the freedom to express natural behaviours, freedom from pain, disease, fear and when their time comes, a good (painless, animal is not aware its happening) death.
as a sidenote, with dairy cows most i've seen have been productive animals till very late in their life. for example and a pretty fun fact, the oldest cow to have lived reached a freakish 49 years old (when most dairy cows aka holsteins, age catches up with em faster due to size and the amount they produce which is a problem. old holsteins reach 10 - 13, sadly a lot of em don't reach it which is why i think we should be outcrossing more and investing in healthier milking breeds) and had 39 calves, the last at 41 years old.

and yea, theres sometimes rampant worker abuse in slaughterhouses which is a issue especially with immigrants. however i've met slaughterhosue workers who do enjoy their jobs and have a very good work enviorment, it really varies from country to even individual slaughterhouses. (of course not saying it can't be damaging physiologically, but when done correctly i've hardly heard of people negatively affected by it)
i'm also of the opinion if you eat meat, you should know the process and have seen it, and if you're uncomfortable with it you should reconsider meat if you're able to.

thanks for the clarification on what you meant by organic by the way! also i'm happy to clarify any of my points if i'm not clear somewhere! im a bit tired atm

Yeah indeed we’re just going to have to agree to disagree on the slaughter thing!
but yeah aside from the fact that I just don’t want to use animals for food, logically speaking you’re right there. The animals are indeed unhealthy because they’ve been bred to produce so much, which is also the reason why they need to eat human grade food *with* the non human grade food. If we’d go back to smaller heritage breeds, we could indeed feed them crop leftovers, as they wouldn’t need that high energy food anymore. Either way to realise this ideal most people need to dramatically cut down on their animal product consumption, so in that way my veganism helps welfarists too 😂

Don’t really have much to say about the rest :O you’re very knowledgeable and I appreciated having this conversation calmly.

[косатка]

Well, we can all start eating bugs!! Most people can't even handle the thought, but bugs are very sustainable, nutritious, and easy to raise.

Thought I'd bring that up, as many people never consider insects as being a food source, which is a shame. I'm currently pescatarian, but hope to raise and grow my own food, and hopefully one day I'll also be able to stomach insects and raise them myself.

[Bilaz]

^I used to enjoy eating insects and they are indeed a lot more sustainable. Since then my values have become to not kill any animals though so I’ve stopped eating them, but it is a good one to realise.