Dog Owner Chat V. 5

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Re: Dog Owner Chat V. 5

Postby ᴍᴀᴏᴄɪғᴇʀ » Fri Apr 12, 2019 9:03 pm

      A few updates regarding the puppy, we're now getting two (which is a crazy idea but my stepmum is adamant she and my dad can have one, and me and my stepsisters can have the other)
      and his name is 100% Fish, she doesn't want to call hers Chips, but it's a great idea. She wanted to call them Tikka and Masala, which is also fantastic because we already have (Ruby) Chicken.

      We went to see Fish and Chips, and I should've taken pictures, but they're so cute. The parents are lovely, and they're their only litter. The other puppies were also adorable, but Fish is such a little bitey rascal and Chips kept giving us kisses.
      They're different colours; Fish is brindle, Chips is tan, and the puppy they're keeping is black with little ginger eyebrows. There's one other brindle one and the other puppies were all tan. The dad is brindle and the mum is tan with white, no idea where this one black puppy came from xD

      Me and my ssister are going out today to buy collars, more puppy stuff, and hopefully a large crate if Pets at Home has one. Fish and Chips should be coming home with us on Monday <3
      > Would any of you with crates say 2 medium crates for the both of them, or 1 large since they're very close siblings?
      My aunt has a large for her boxer and boxador to share, and they're never bothered by it, and ours won't be as big as them, but they might want their own space.
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Re: Dog Owner Chat V. 5

Postby Cardinal » Sat Apr 13, 2019 2:49 am

Two crates absolutely and well spaced apart. Puppies need to be rotated and not allowed unlimited access to one another. They each need lots and lots of individual attention, excersize, and training away from one another. Look up Littermate Syndrome, theres a reason the majority of reputable breeders wont sell two puppies to the same home
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Re: Dog Owner Chat V. 5

Postby shadow~wolf » Sat Apr 13, 2019 5:43 am

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Re: Dog Owner Chat V. 5

Postby partly cloudy » Sat Apr 13, 2019 2:12 pm

my dog and I started back up competing in agility trials today! He really surprised me because we haven't been to that facility in a year or so but we practice at home. Out of our five runs, we Q-ed in three of them and got a title for touch and go! Really proud of my lil monster and hoping for no rain for the next two trial days! (we might get two more titles!)

While we were at the trial, I saw a bunch of dogs with a harness that looks really neat. They look like HDP No-pull harnesses but they had the dog's name on it? if anyone has this harness type I'd love to know how the quality is!
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Re: Dog Owner Chat V. 5

Postby Luzien » Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:18 pm

Cardinal wrote:Two crates absolutely and well spaced apart. Puppies need to be rotated and not allowed unlimited access to one another. They each need lots and lots of individual attention, excersize, and training away from one another. Look up Littermate Syndrome, theres a reason the majority of reputable breeders wont sell two puppies to the same home


why absolutely two crates?
i know enough breeder ...owner ...who use one big crate....or one large dog bed in different places for there dogs, so when they like they can sleep together or go away and sleep alone... for two puppy or one adult with a puppy that works alright when they are good with each other....^^
Our family friend put there new 8 or was it 9week old puppy together with there own last litters female a 2year old, in one large crate for the night, an they are together in a crate when traveing and at Shows,.....so why not?
when they have Trouble with each other or one wans there own place to sleep then alright...but when they are nice and calm all is right....and they can help each other in the new Situation away from the mom.

And that was a little to easy of you to say that No reputable breeder (so those who do are bad breeder??) would sell two puppy to same home :roll: there are some who do, when they know that the new ower can work with and own two puppy of them, who learned enough of the new home and owner that they know that there should be no much trouble,... :lol:....yes most give only one to a new owner, as they are already enough to handle one puppy....real much work with one alone ^_^, but this has to do with how much dog knowledge and if they can take care of two not only one puppy... and how much time and people a family got... how big a garden and yard one has the new home needs to be big enough....and so on.... they are happy when they can give two puppy to the same good home, as they know where to find them more easy, dont need to run a check up on a seond possible owner, kow the person where the puppy go and the new home and so on.....(i would have gotten the male to my female, from same litter when he was not already spoken for at this time ;) and im still sad that it was like this)

.....and they still get training and work sessions away from each other....one may like to do sport the other more family pet...one has more time to work and walk there dog in the morning the other after work or school...and so on...also temper is different in each puppy and character.....one dog is for parents the other for the two kids....so they will get seperated often enough^^
they see and learn different things will play different games....go to different trainer in puppy school,separate play time(but also together so they stay Close but not to Close and work well together till old age!!! do like other dogs and people more in this play groups, and all that where they go alone and also together...so good dog owner who know what they do and how to train the perfect companion dog should ot have much trouble when all of the family work together. Together and alone time is important for them...be it one or more puppy/dogs.


Littermate Syndrome
- https://simplewag.com/littermate-syndrome/
- https://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/h ... drome.aspx

- https://winter2019.iaabcjournal.org/lit ... -syndrome/
(There’s No Scientific Reason to Believe Littermate Syndrome Exists)
personal hypothesis is that perceived littermate syndrome is actually generally a result of several specific conditions that often arise when people attempt to raise siblings together. Of course, all of these observations are, by necessity, anecdotal and based on personal experience.
•Inadequate socialization, especially with other dogs. Many unknowing owners assume that letting their two puppies play together is an adequate replacement for dog-dog socialization. This misunderstanding is particularly understandable when the two puppies are the same age and breed. In other words, it’s particularly easy to fall into this trap when raising siblings. The owners I personally know who have successfully raised sibling pairs took pains to introduce the puppies and teenage dogs to other dogs, both together and separately.
•Inadequate environmental management. It also seems that some owners are more likely to slip up on environmental management (removing food bowls, managing access to resting places) when the dogs are perceived as “best friends who have never been apart”—as is the case with siblings.
•Insufficient “alone time” training. Many of the hyperbonded dogs I met at the shelter were crated together, walked together, taken to the vet together, and so on. The owners sometimes reported that they had “never been apart.” And therein may lie the problem. Just like we’d expect to see separation anxiety if a dog had never been more than three feet from their owner, it’s not surprising to see extreme distress in these adult siblings that have never been taught how to be apart. I’ve found that most of the owners that successfully raise and keep siblings do things with those dogs. They go to training class, shows, trials, and more with just one dog at a time. At the very least, the dogs are used to being trained and crated separately.
•Failure to meet the dogs’ needs. Many of the cases of sibling aggression that I’ve seen are also paired with a clear lack of mental and physical enrichment for the dogs. In conversations with the owners, I often realized that they assumed that the two siblings could keep each other company. The owners didn’t see a need for puzzle toys, training games, long walks, and so on because the dogs “have each other.”

As always, we need to start with the bottom of the Humane Hierarchy. If the dogs are not having their basic needs met, we can’t start to blame their problems on an unsupported diagnosis of littermate syndrome. The dogs’ needs for socialization, mental enrichment, training, environmental management, and physical exercise all must be addressed before we can start grasping for other explanations.

What’s the harm in calling it littermate syndrome?

Again, it’s possible that siblings raised together are more likely to show aggressive behavior toward each other or display neophobia—there haven’t been any studies published to show us either way. Tendencies toward aggressive behavior in particular may be further explained by breed or sex.

So, what’s the issue with a shorthand label of “littermate syndrome”? When we call something a “syndrome,” it automatically sounds very real and quite serious. Owners may perceive this label as an abdication of responsibility. Oh, it’s a syndrome, they may think. So there’s nothing I could have done. This perception stymies our attempts to make real improvements in the lives of our clients and their dogs.

Potentially worse, calling it a syndrome also makes it easy for us, the behavior consultants, to make another dangerous mental leap. I’ve seen dozens of conversations about littermates on social media where the prevailing response was, “It’s littermate syndrome. You have to rehome one of the dogs.” While it’s certainly unsurprising to see blunt and simplistic behavior suggestions being doled out on social media, the jump to rehoming seems, in my experience, to come especially quickly when an owner admits their dogs are siblings.

As behavior consultants who value the Humane Hierarchy, we can do better than crying “littermate syndrome!” and jumping straight to rehoming. Rather than immediately suggesting that struggling owners give up one of their puppies, perhaps we should focus on:
1.Teaching our clients about basic canine body language.
2.Helping our clients understand the importance of training, walking, and socializing the dogs separately at times.
3.Implementing management strategies for our clients, such as crate-and-rotate and muzzle training, when necessary.
4.Educating our clients on the necessary steps of desensitization, counterconditioning, and teaching alternative behaviors.

Behavior consultants should at least attempt to address the dogs’ social, physical, and mental needs. When necessary, it is our responsibility to implement environmental management, conduct counterconditioning, and teach the dogs obedience skills before suggesting rehoming.
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Re: Dog Owner Chat V. 5

Postby beautifulglitter » Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:52 am

Luzien wrote:
Cardinal wrote:Two crates absolutely and well spaced apart. Puppies need to be rotated and not allowed unlimited access to one another. They each need lots and lots of individual attention, excersize, and training away from one another. Look up Littermate Syndrome, theres a reason the majority of reputable breeders wont sell two puppies to the same home


why absolutely two crates?
-snip-

You do realize that the source you provided explicitly said that siblings have to be crated separately?
When talking about non-littermate syndrome dogs wrote:At the very least, the dogs are used to being trained and crated separately.

Your source "disproving" littermate syndrome said they not only will have to be crated separately, but also walked separately, trained separately, socialized separately, fed separately, etc. In essence, raised entirely separately. Which kind of proves that littermate syndrome is a thing lol.

Obviously, it isn't *impossible* to keep the two puppies' lives completely un-entangled (and thus raise emotionally and mentally healthy individuals), but it is far beyond the pale of what nearly all but full-time professional trainers with well-designed kenneling and facility layouts are capable of. That's why as Cardinal said it is very rare for reputable breeders to allow siblings to be homed together (the exception being that someone does have the time, knowledge, and facilities to handle raising siblings). And from what the OP has said of their situation and all members involved, it does not sound like raising the two properly separate will be remotely possible. If getting siblings is really going to happen no matter what, crating them individually in two separate rooms where they cannot see each other is the bare minimum standard of care.

((Just to re-emphasize, I don't think the situation's OP is a bad person, they seem to be a responsible individual making the best out of a situation out of their hands, and trying to do right by the pup(s). They sound like a really good owner, who just happens to be in the middle of a not-so-great situation.))

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On on a lighter note, the forest is coming alive again, and it's so pretty! I haven't been able to get a shot that really captures it, but the wild violets are going crazy this year, and they look stunning amongst the dark green of the other groundcover! Luca is much more excited about the squirrels coming out though lol
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While I love seeing everything spring back to life, I'm less than happy about all the ticks waking up; my boy is on prevention, so they usually don't even try to bite him, but that doesn't stop them from using him to hitch a ride inside and bite me :roll:
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Re: Dog Owner Chat V. 5

Postby Luzien » Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:37 am

Not really, i used it as example as ther did say to look it up, so that other who do not know what it is can look at it ;)
yes they did say this, but two crate are really not always needed!!!! A good knwledable owner, who had already Dogs, knows how to see when there will be Problems and how to work with this... who did have puppys and knows what they do. and how training should be, should have no Problem, or see when the puppy Needs an extra crate :lol: but to say they Need it always is not right....you can have 9puppy with no probem and then the 10th will be one of those....but it also can be just one of them who is different and Needs more care or alone time...owner will find it out...

i more or less did mean that real good traning and the right way and knowledge of how to train puppy, is needed for dveture of owning two or more puppy with same age....so they Need to be trained-play time and just time alone with owner as well as time and training and play together to become well trained dogs who do like each other when older...and that is what they write too^_^
and you do Need to read it bether they did write it depends on the human how they grow up and if they will be fearful nervous puppys who fear to walk away from there sibling or play and sleep alone ;)
Training, time, lots of thought and planing is needed but double the one you would have with only one puppy^^

And when there was something like littermate syndrome....the vet's and breeding lessons never did talk abou this in any way all the time....
then how bad would you think would it be, when one puppy stays with there mom or dad.....this must be way worse....they must be so fearful and shy....and not strong well trined Dogs that i know from friends of family who now and then did Keep one puppy...

It all goes around to how you raise threm, there trainig and time the family or the owner is ready to put in them and all that^^

But all of them and you are right, one needs to know what they get into, .....know how too work two Dogs ..be ready when trouble shows and work with this and talk about this things, the good or the bad...and to be ready to go with one puppy, give one back to breeder when it works not out or find help!!



Your Luca Looks great :D
what do you do against ticks? my parents irish already had two or three....
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Re: Dog Owner Chat V. 5

Postby Crossflare » Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:01 am

Littermate syndrome doesn't exist Originally I was going to try and tread lightly on the whole littermate syndrome but since littermate syndrome in and of itself is mislabel to describe neophobia and general unsocialized dog behaviors that result from lack of training and socialization I figured I would just go ahead and say what I've found in my readings of more than a few articles.

Edit: it actually doesn't exist reading more in-depth articles in past few hours seems that this syndrome is fake and that it's one of those things where people say oh your dog has behavior issues so it has this syndrome that you need to rehome the dog for. Real professional trainers and behaviorists do not use the term nor is it even a real behavior syndrome at all. Having two sibling dogs will not cause them to develop fake littermate syndrome.

Edit: not saying the behaviors aren't a thing it but that it probably shouldn't be referred to as littermate syndrome because it can occur in any dog pairing not just dogs related to each other the article I have linked explains other factors that can cause any pair of dogs to act neophobic or aggressive due to things that the owner did not do when the dogs were young so it's not exactly a real thing so much as failure to do any sort of training/socialization. Crating them separately did not factor into it so it really doesn't matter if you crate two dogs separately when they are young what matters is exposure and socialization. There was also no mention of it contributing nor even helping to prevent the falsely named syndrome that doesn't actually exist because it's probably just term that was made up as cop-out to say I didn't socialize my dog enough so now it has this thing called littermate syndrome.

Edit: Also training forgot to say training, although it's a good idea to have dogs have their own sleeping spaces in general gives them the freedom to not be in eachothers space all the time but won't stop them from stealing each other's beds.

Not using this as support just thought you all might find the article interesting: https://winter2019.iaabcjournal.org/littermate-syndrome/

Edit: Also please do not come and say I'm a know it all because I did research on this looked through articles I'm not trying to disapprove that littermate syndrome isn't a thing only that the term is not real in and of itself but the behaviors associated with said fake syndrome are actually prevalent when dogs are not properly exposed trained or socialized in general making most of the so-called preventing of it actually moot when it's really just down to normal training socialization and desensitizing by exposing the pups or dogs to things. Nothing really scary about it but saying littermate syndrome makes it sound like every new dog owner needs to fear it when it's really just a matter of standard things you do when raising dog.

Edit: I am also aware that Cardinal you are listed among general training advice but I am imploring you to please do more extensive research rather than just blurting out littermate syndrome and saying to look it up. Also instead of calling it that why not just say this is the advice I can give you instead of blurting out something that might make a new dog owner scared or nervous about causing their pup to become neophobic and unsocialized cause they are playing with their sibling in the house. You may be well-intentioned but perhaps it might be a bit better to just not blurt out things that may cause people to get scared or nervous. This kind of fear mongers things and can even cause panic among dog or puppy owners in general.

Edit: Not attacking anyone just asking that they be a little more careful about how they word and that take a little more care in researching cause I am a bit alarmed to learn that such a fake behavior syndrome exists for what has nothing to do with whether two dogs come from the same litter or not and more to do with how the dog is raised. I'm not out to get anyone in this thread I am however here to make sure that people understand that littermate syndrome is not real. The behaviors that the dogs exhibit being used to describe the syndrome are but the syndrome itself is not.

Some other interesting articles this is blog maybe not the most credible so not being used as evidence but still an interesting read
https://fantasypups.weebly.com/blog/the-littermate-syndrome-myth

Also a video debunking littermate syndrome by a real expert Actually a pair of experts in animal behavior the videos only five minutes long but it's very educational. The experts are Certified Applied Animal Behaviorists Dr. Suzanne Hetts and Dr. Dan Estep Like these people went to school have Ph.D. in this field of study which makes them more qualified than all of us to determine whether it exists.
https://player.vimeo.com/video/203347340/

Edit: also not trying to be mean or rude or anything but if you feel that because I have said any of this and have actually come up with sufficient information to educate people with and do not like it I have no problems with leaving this thread and refraining from posting any farther.

Edit: Separating the two pups causes a distress response suggesting that they should not be housed together or in separate rooms is very detrimental to a puppies health mentally. By telling people to house them in separate rooms and not allowing them access to each other you cause them to have a stress response. All the pups really need is to be trained separately and socialized with dogs and people outside of the home. They can still bond and will still listen to their owners if worked with separately and not trained together as pups tend to distract each other also it's harder to train two dogs at the same time so it's much easier to work with them individually but not allowing them access to each other or shutting them off from each other when they are siblings is detrimental to the two in first place. You're not trying to cause these animals to distress you're trying to raise them together not separate them.

Although it's probably money saving to use one crate while the pups are small and graduate to separate crates when they are older but should they be shut off from each other no that's where I disagree cause that again causes the stress response these pups are littermates from the same litter they can and will form bonds with their owners and will be just fine. Provided they get the training and socialization. I decided to look at more scholarly stuff to talk about this. If you still doubt littermate syndrome is fake perhaps ask yourself can these behaviors be applied to more than just puppies of the same litter? The answer is yes they can and if I wanted I could make the argument that adding a new dog to your family with an already existing dog will cause the same behavior issues as that of two puppies from same litter based on the littermate syndrome myth.

Sorry for the long amount of edits. I go really in depth when I do extensive research like this.
Last edited by Crossflare on Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dog Owner Chat V. 5

Postby beautifulglitter » Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:53 am

I agree that littermate syndrome is not restricted to just littermates; I personally know a littermate syndrome pair that is father-daughter. It is called littermate syndrome because that's where it's most commonly seen- siblings are most likely to meet the criteria of youth and age difference that predisposes them. This does not mean it does not exist. Many things are named after what they are first discovered or more prevalent in; for example, White Shaker Syndrome was first discovered and is more predominently seen in small white dogs, but a dog of any size or color can have it. This naming trend can be seen in other fields and areas of science as well. Codependent relationships like littermate syndrome are seen in a variety of species under a variety of names, and are definitely a real thing.

I also disagree that littermate syndrome is just simply improper socialization, although it can be a contributing factor. The father-daughter pair I know came about because the father was irresponsibly accidentally allowed to breed when he was just over 6 months old. Because he and his daughter spent their early life in the same household and were so close in age, they formed an intense bond. In addition, both of them were HEAVILY socialized, meeting easily upwards of 75 different dogs, their owners, etc. Yet still the two only have eyes for each other. They are obsessed with being near each other, and will not break their attention long enough to be able to work either dog meaningfully without the other present, and will flat out ignore commands in lieu of focusing on each other when worked together. If one is restrained from the other, they become distressed. Sometimes their obsession boils over into conflict and they will fight as well, and they will also fight other dogs who try to "take" one away from the other. This isn't an owner training problem either- the other dog in their household who was not as close in age and thus did not form this bond is completely normal in behavior and really well trained.

I know all evidence for and against its existence is anecdotal, but anyone who has ever seen a littermate syndrome pair knows it is definitely real, and it is awful. Yes it can be prevented, yes it can be broken, but it's very hard unless you have the space, time, and energy to manage it, especially since it can require constant upkeep. Littermate syndrome is, in a lot of ways, the same as separation anxiety (in fact that's one of the names used for this codependent bond in horses). True separation anxiety is something only licensed, professional trainers should touch because it is so challenging and mentally exhausting for the average person, because it does require months of 100% dedication and focus and lifetime monitoring for regression.


I guess I don't understand why anyone would knowingly, willingly choose to even open the door to the possibility of littermate syndrome, especially when it can be avoided. Even if it did only happen 5% of the time, I wouldn't feel comfortable taking that risk with my dog's mental and emotional health. But that's just me and my $.02, and is all I'm going to further say on the matter ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Re: Dog Owner Chat V. 5

Postby cornspurrd. » Sun Apr 14, 2019 1:54 pm

deacon and I are taking part in a Instagram fitness challenge! I haven't posted anything on it because I'm bad.. At social media. But we've been following along! It's been really fun, for the " go to a place you've never been before " part of the challenge a few days ago we explored a park and deacon had so much fun playing in a lake we found! Eek.

That's all. I'm never online anymore. But deacon is doing good. Finally leArned weaves, and we're working on disk stuff.
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