Dog Owner Chat V. 5

[Luzien]

@.Middy.
Congrats, O! Not so long ago you were just a little pupper in a backpack with wonky ears, now look at you!
Hecc, I don't even know what dock diving is, but I'm so proud of her. It's nice to have watched her grow up like this <3 Imagine it now, Champion Octavia.

@Imzadi83
I didn't think your initial post was intended to be negative, though the above one comes off a little more so.
The only reason I'm unsure of the breed is because my stepmum doesn't know dogs very well and likely doesn't remember the breed she was told, she's only guessing by shape. I know what a backyard breeder is, as does probably everyone on this thread, and I certainly wouldn't call her that. Her health-checked family dog got pregnant by mistake and she took care of her and her pups, she's not selling the puppies for a profit (£100 sounds like a big loss when you factor in each vaccination and every check up mum and pups had), and, as far as I know, probably doesn't intend to breed her again. Just because it wasn't a planned litter makes it unethical?
The other people the puppies have gone to are ones who already stated, prior to her getting pregnant, that they'd like one of her puppies because of how good-natured she is. I doubt any of those people would've got another dog if it wasn't her puppy, so they're likely not stealing away a rescue's place. Again, I've never met her or the dog, so it's all word-of-mouth.

In your defense, I probably should have said this before, though I didn't predict it being such a big thing.


Of course, I was a little concerned when my stepmum texted me saying "heyy let's get this puppy," instead of talking about it first, but her daughter was refusing to have a shelter dog and I don't mind looking after it.
She held it for maybe all of an hour and decided to reserve him, we haven't even properly met him, I myself am a little mad.
I'm not encouraging impulse buying, I wouldn't want to be surprised by a puppy, but a pup from a dog my stepmum knows and likes is better -in her eyes- than a stranger with pedigree or a rescue.

Sorry if this is completely incoherent. It was a lot to read and it's extremely late.

Yes, in my opinion an unplanned litter is unethical, no one should allow it to happen. This litter was BYB regardless of the price she is charging for them. I'm glad she's trying to take care of the puppies now but her female shouldn't have been allowed to get pregnant in the first place. It's not that hard to keep a female from getting pregnant, it's part of responsible ownership of owning an intact female. If one can't handle that then don't keep your female intact.

A dog being good natured doesn't mean it's worth breeding. Plenty of good natured dogs are killed in shelters every day. If those people really wanted a dog they could have gotten a similar quality one from a shelter/rescue. Just because you like a female isn't a responsible reason to get a dog. What happens when they take the puppy home and it's nothing like the mother? Will the breeder take them back? A responsible one would and would have been prepared to do so from the get go.

The quality of this puppy is just as chancy as adopting one from a shelter. What if the father had a genetic disease that he passed on to the pups? Or what if his genetics combined with the female cause problems? Most people understand you're taking that risk when you adopt from a shelter/rescue. Unfortunately however many people don't realize that a puppy from a BYB is just as much of a question mark, only they usually have higher price tags.

You don't think the owner intends to breed again, but she never intended to breed in the first place either. So what happens to the next "oops" litter? Will she keep those she can't sell? Will she take back the others anytime in their lives if the owners change their mind? If not, where will they end up but in a shelter/rescue? What about the puppies, is she altering them before placement, putting it in the contract that they must be altered and planing on following up on that, or is she trusting they won't be bred, or does she not care they're bred and what happens to those puppies or the ones after that?

Again I realize you in particular can't help what your Stepmom does, and that you may not be able to change your mind. I get that and am not trying to pick on you, or this puppy, personally. I'm trying to spread awareness of the short and long term effects of BYBs and buying from BYBs. So many people have wound up stuck with a problem puppy or just one they later regret that turns into a dog that winds up in the shelter system, by this point past the cute puppy phase, only to be someone else's problem to fix, care for, re-home. Even if a particular puppy doesn't have any obvious problems due to bad breeding, dogs from BYBs can easily wind up in homes that aren't a good fit for them. Matchmaking is hard for people who've done it for years let alone for people who've never done it and are trying to home a litter they weren't prepared for.

BYBs make it easy for people to buy dogs, too easy. Dog ownership isn't easy and both responsible shelters/rescues and responsible breeders are very careful about placing and keeping up with puppy buyers/adopters so they don't wind up back in the system. Otherwise both parties are contributing to the problem of overpopulation and subsequent death of millions of dogs.

I'm sorry if I come off as hostile (I'm in a lot of pain today), I just want to get the word out and educate people. I'm just tired of hearing of dogs suffering from genetic problems that could've been avoided with proper testing and responsible breeding. I'm tired of seeing people who should not have gotten a puppy in the first place (but a BYB was glad to sell them one) dump it in the shelter when it turns out raising a puppy is hard work. I'm tired of BYBs who allow oops litters to happen when shelters are euthanizing puppies by litter fulls. I'm tired of people who spend $750 or more for a "papered" puppy but won't adopt the $300 shelter puppy because they mistakenly think the first is better somehow. I'm just tired.

From what I read from you it sounds like you will be a responsible caregiver to this puppy or any dog, and again, I understand you don't have the final say in this instance. I just want to put the information out there so that others, when they have the ability, don't support BYBs. If people stopped buying puppies from BYBs, if it was more difficult for them to find homes and they had to live with the mess/expense of a growing litter of puppies, possibly with health problems maybe it would make more people think twice before breeding (even by accident) in the first place. And I don't believe that BYBs in general are evil, but if they had to face the fact that there are already great puppies being killed in shelters then maybe they would stop and think before they produce more.

Imzadi83
you say some not nice and true things there....maybe think, bevor saying that all who get accident litter are bad owner and this Shows bad ownership and should get there dogs fixed....an accident can happen even to real breeder who work under kennel club.

[eff]

My second pup is KC registered from a friend, my first pup was from a "BYB", at least to my knowledge.
I understand the health issues that could POSSIBLY come with this type of breeding. Pippin, as I've said many times, is epileptic. Now, we don't know if this is hereditary or not. Two vets have said they believe it was poisoning (without any way of proof), which is viable as our neighbours would throw things over the fence, such as dog faeces (they had wetland terriers) and other strange foods. However, if it was hereditary, then I believe there is no one better than us to look after him. He was the runt, most likely to have health issues and now we are paying that price.
As someone that is most likely affected by BYB and unethical breeding, I still think Imzadi is in the wrong. It isn't your place to say this friend is unethically breeding, yet vaccinating and feeding a well-cared for pup.

[eleutheromania]

accidental litters can and do happen. no one is perfect even when it comes to dog breeding. so calling anyone with an accidental litter unethical is wrong. it’s a case by case basis and again no one is perfect, accidents happen even when you take all precautions cause it only takes a few seconds. and what is wrong with someone wanting to buy that 750$ puppy versus a shelter pup? what if said person is specifically looking for something in that dog versus one at a shelter, or cannot get approval from a shelter because they don’t have a fence, have young children, or intact animals. rescues are not perfect either. and my next dogs will probably never come from a rescue/shelter as i’m highly against pediatric spay and neuter and this is my opinion. i’ve grown up with rescue dogs and the majority had issues or we rehomed them when it became something my mother couldn’t handle. honestly you have no right to judge unless you yourself keep breeding dogs and have experience working with breeders with multiple dogs.

unless you specifically know this person, you shouldn’t be calling them unethical and a bad owner as you know not the entirety of the situation and how this person treats their animals. nor should you be assuming she’s gonna have another litter etc etc. there is a difference between educational information and asumming someone isn’t knowledge about their own dogs and not doing the right thing or let it happen again.

@sky ; sounds like your aunt has a good plan in the long run. awesome she finished a dog in fast cat too.

[EchoOfShatteredIce]

(just posting so I can return to this thread)

[PemCorgis]

Super proud of my perfect girl yesterday! We went up to a dock event last minute and she got her first twin Qs towards her novice title! Should get her novice title at the Easter trial provided she doesn’t start jumping into the next level 😂

First Q was 3.6ft and was more of a plop but her second was a actual jump and she hit 5ft! Not super far yet but hopefully now that she knows she can jump we will get further in the future!

She's so gorgeous!! How did you get into dock diving? I've actually never thought about getting the boys into it. Any suggestions for where to start?

[eff]

accidental litters can and do happen. no one is perfect even when it comes to dog breeding. so calling anyone with an accidental litter unethical is wrong. it’s a case by case basis and again no one is perfect, accidents happen even when you take all precautions cause it only takes a few seconds. and what is wrong with someone wanting to buy that 750$ puppy versus a shelter pup? what if said person is specifically looking for something in that dog versus one at a shelter, or cannot get approval from a shelter because they don’t have a fence, have young children, or intact animals. rescues are not perfect either. and my next dogs will probably never come from a rescue/shelter as i’m highly against pediatric spay and neuter and this is my opinion. i’ve grown up with rescue dogs and the majority had issues or we rehomed them when it became something my mother couldn’t handle. honestly you have no right to judge unless you yourself keep breeding dogs and have experience working with breeders with multiple dogs.

unless you specifically know this person, you shouldn’t be calling them unethical and a bad owner as you know not the entirety of the situation and how this person treats their animals. nor should you be assuming she’s gonna have another litter etc etc. there is a difference between educational information and asumming someone isn’t knowledge about their own dogs and not doing the right thing or let it happen again.

@sky ; sounds like your aunt has a good plan in the long run. awesome she finished a dog in fast cat too.

i agree with this, definitely.

[Skysong]

The drive from Mississippi is killer when she has issues driving for that long with a dog.

Her girls speeds.
Sasha runs at 26.17 mph.
Alexis runs at 25.6
Cymber runs at 28, and she’s still in the D class.
Alana runs at 25.7, also still in D class.

Sasha and Alexis are 4 years old.
Cymber and Alana are 3.

Xane is turning 3 this month.

[eleutheromania]

that’s fast but then again i’ve never clocked dog speeds or done fast cat though i’d happily get into it if i had the resources around me.

@prem ; easiest way is to find a dock or dock diving facility around you. i know mine is 2 hours from me and on the coast. unfortunately none of my three are water lovers so it’s not a sport i can start until i get my BC puppy in the next coming years. your dog has to enjoy the water so maybe taking them out to lakes, beaches etc to see how they do first would be a good start. then you could possible find the dock diving facility and work with the people there to build the confidence for your dog to jump off a dock. dock diving is sometimes at dog events such as shows but you have to search for it and register to practice on it with your dog for a certain time and then from there get some qualifying jumps. it’s awesome to watch

[Imzadi83]

accidental litters can and do happen. no one is perfect even when it comes to dog breeding. so calling anyone with an accidental litter unethical is wrong. it’s a case by case basis and again no one is perfect, accidents happen even when you take all precautions cause it only takes a few seconds. and what is wrong with someone wanting to buy that 750$ puppy versus a shelter pup? what if said person is specifically looking for something in that dog versus one at a shelter, or cannot get approval from a shelter because they don’t have a fence, have young children, or intact animals. rescues are not perfect either. and my next dogs will probably never come from a rescue/shelter as i’m highly against pediatric spay and neuter and this is my opinion. i’ve grown up with rescue dogs and the majority had issues or we rehomed them when it became something my mother couldn’t handle. honestly you have no right to judge unless you yourself keep breeding dogs and have experience working with breeders with multiple dogs.

unless you specifically know this person, you shouldn’t be calling them unethical and a bad owner as you know not the entirety of the situation and how this person treats their animals. nor should you be assuming she’s gonna have another litter etc etc. there is a difference between educational information and asumming someone isn’t knowledge about their own dogs and not doing the right thing or let it happen again.

@sky ; sounds like your aunt has a good plan in the long run. awesome she finished a dog in fast cat too.

Accidental litters should never happen, it's not that hard to prevent them. And again, you don't have to have an intact dog if you don't think your situation is one in which you can handle them. I'm sure there are rare circumstances (a dog dashing out when firemen are forced to break down the door), but for the most part allowing your dog to become pregnant accidentally is irresponsible. Just like it is irresponsible to not latch your gate and then your dog gets out and gets hit by a car. That doesn't mean you're evil, or that everything else you do is bad, or that you can't be a good dog owner otherwise; but that single act is irresponsible and people need to know that those things should not happen so that they can prevent them. So while some accidents can happen, most of the time they are preventable through education and caution on the part of the dog owner. Talking about it, letting people know the risks, is how people can stop, think, and prevent accidents from happening in the first place.

I'm not sure what you mean by "real breeder who work under kennel club". There are plenty of irresponsible breeders who get AKC papers for their dogs, most puppy mill dogs have papers. While responsible breeders should, in my opinion, show their dog (as a way to find out if it's worth breeding and to prevent kennel blindness) and follow ethical guidelines set forth by their breed club that doesn't mean that everyone who gets their dog AKC or other kennel club registration are by definition responsible.

@eleutheromania - Again, I'm not calling everything this person has or ever will do wrong. But allowing your dog to become pregnant accidentally is a mistake. You all are right in that I don't know this person. Maybe they will take steps to prevent it in the future, I hope they will. Maybe they won't and they are one of those people who will do nothing while the female continues to breed and pump out puppies cause after all the owner she took good care of them and found them homes after the fact right? I don't know, but I bring it up so that people when considering getting a puppy can be aware of things they might want to find out before they decide to support a breeder by purchasing a puppy from them.

I understand that there are good and bad rescues. That's kind of my point, in that there are also good and bad breeders. Good breeders breed with a purpose doing everything possible to ensure the health and well being of the future puppies. Breeding pet quality dogs for fun or profit while pet quality dogs die in shelters by the millions is responsible and is unethical in my opinion. I realize this may vary by location (living on a small island with remote access is a lot different from living in the US for instance in terms of access to a pet) but I thought people could figure this part out on their own so I didn't go into it. I'm sorry if it caused confusion.

I, again, have no problem with responsible breeders. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about people who buy the cheap BYB puppy because it's cheaper than going to responsible breeder. People that have fooled themselves or are unaware of the risks of what they are actually supporting. Responsible breeders are just as picky, sometimes more then rescues, with who they sell a puppy too. They don't want, and will prevent in some way, their pet quality dogs being bred because they do not want to contribute to the pet overpopulation and subsequent death of dogs.

I'm not sure why you're going off on pediatric spays and neuters as, there are other alternatives both surgical and non. Some breeders may have blanket polices, others may go based on individuals. Some spay/neuter, some have in the contract that the puppy must be altered by a certain time, others have a no-breed clause and keep up with the buyers. My point was that they should make some attempt to prevent these puppies from growing up and producing more puppies.

I am also concerned about pediatric spays and neuters but personally would rather see someone choose that route rather then another litter of puppies have to be euthanized in shelters or end up in unsuitable homes, dumped in shelters and then killed later on. That's my opinion, yours may be different and that is fine. Personally I wish more shelters would offer ovary-sparing spays, tubal ligation, and vasectomy as options but unfortunately it does not seem practical right now.

As far as judging goes, yes I suppose I do judge some BYBs very poorly (puppy mills for example), and all of them if they choose to continue on with poor breeding practices that lead to dogs dying in shelters. Those same dogs you said you didn't want to deal with again came from BYBs. If we don't stop them from breeding via education to both potential breeders and puppy buyers dogs are going to keep dying in shelters. I understand if you can't/don't want another rescue dog, I don't judge you for that. I just want everyone to be educated by the information in choosing a breeder so you or anyone don't end up with the same problems you avoided going to a shelter for, and could have been prevented through responsible breeding.

That's my opinion. And you're right I don't know the BYB in this instance. If I met them I may like them and think they are otherwise a good dog owner/person. I wish that they had been more responsible and prevented this accident from happening, which if they are a good dog owner they will wish too. I hope they will be more responsible in the future. Personally I would would want to ask them that before deciding whether to support them by buying a puppy from them. That's my point, I want people to have the information so that they can ask questions and make decisions.

@hyde - This is a discussion thread so yes, I guess I do feel it is my place if I wish to discuss something. I think you're making assumptions about what I'm saying. This litter was bred unethically and irresponsibly. If they are otherwise a good dog owner they would likely agree and take steps (whatever is appropriate in the specific situation) to make sure it never happens again, that those puppies never wind up in shelters/rescues, that they don't produce more puppies that could wind up having problems or end up in shelters/rescues etc. Vaccinating and feeding is great, but it isn't the be all and end all of responsibility. I just want people to be aware of that. Ultimately what you or anyone else does with that information is their choice. But I have met so many people who felt duped and cheated, watched their pet suffer, etc. because they did not know what to look out for or what questions to ask. There are people who may breed responsibly now who may have breed irresponsibly in the past who if they had been better informed may not have had to learn the hard.

Take Pippin for example, say you knew for sure his problem was genetic but even knowing that the breeder continued to breed puppies from the same parents. Would you find that ethical so long as the puppies were vaccinated & feed? Wouldn't you want, in that instance, for them to instead acknowledge the problem and fix it? And how can we, as a dog loving society, fix any problems if we don't talk about it and hold accountable the people who've caused problems in the first place? I'm not talking torches and pitchforks, I'm talking about..well...talk. Know what you're getting into, what you may be potentially be supporting and make and informed decision.

[eff]

No, I think you are the one making assumptions. I didn't say ethical breeding was simply vaccinating, feeding and caring for a litter. It was up to you to assume that. Giving the dog it's fundamentals, especially when they did not expect or want a litter, is the best that they could possibly doing. You talking so negatively and harshly towards people who have had accidental litters is really frustrating.

Even though it has already been mentioned, I'll say it again:

It isn't up to you to say someone, who you haven't met and know nothing about, is an unethical breeder.

I really do think you are being fairly aggressive towards anyone who is disagreeing with you, even if you cannot believe that you are being aggressive. They can happen, if you want them to or not. Some people don't want to neuter or spay their dogs. I don't think that that is necessarily right, but they could have their own reasons for it. Sometimes, a dog can escape and get pregnant or impregnate a bitch. That is something that does happen and forever will happen.

Sometimes, plans are made to neuter and spay your dog, but it gets held back.

Is it my fault, am I irresponsible, because Pippin's seizures delayed being neutered? Is medical problems, that limit or temporarily prevent being neutered/spayed, an appropriate excuse to label someone as a Backyard Breeder after an accidental and further unavoidable litter?

The fact you say that they should never happen is ignorant in itself. It isn't ideal, for either parties; rescues and the "breeder", but it happens regardless of your ideology.

You can't label talking down to someone as educational. I am pretty sure a large portion of society understands from the constant adverts, charity shops, etc. that animal charities and rescues are filling up quickly. I believe that any dog is for life, generally. Yet circumstances happen. I would not keep my dog if it negatively affected them after unforeseen issues had arisen. If the owner cannot raise or let the dog live its life to the best of its abilities, then shelters should come into play.

Now, if someone is running a puppy mill, that is completely different. I would label them as BYB, over someone who had an accidental litter.