Dog Owner Chat v2

[Dizzy socks]

@Dizzy Socks;

Yes and no. Breeds are made from careful breeding over multiple generations for specific traits. They don't just mix two dogs together and call them a new breed with a cutsey name... which is how doodles and several other designer dogs are. For instance the doberman didn't establish a solid individual type for about 30 years and they continued to improve the breed until they found "the" look and temperament they wanted... well after the founder had died. Breeds don't just develop overnight and many people run into problems finding the exact temperament or structure they need or they run into health problems. This is why the creator of doodle dogs actually abandoned doodles and says he regrets starting it now.

There are border and terrier crosses that are all over flyball right now. For better or worse. You'll actually find that a lot of these crosses RULE the charts of flyball. Flyball is a dog sport that didn't exist until recently... so of course there is no breed that perfectly fits everything you need but plenty that come pretty darn close. Now there may be a few breeds made just for flyball.

Personally I would be okay with designer breeds IF they were health tested, IF they were titled in some form of maybe obedience or rally. Everyone wants a healthy, trainable, dog right? Even if they are "just" a pet, you want to be able to train your pet and have it for years to come.

Firstly, I'd just like people to understand that I don't myself particularly support designer breeds, it's just I am playing devils advocate as I feel it's a pretty interesting discussion.

I do have one - but we have a lifetimes expirience if many different breeds, and knew we could handle it. We had one simply because they seem like fun dogs - but having had one, I'm not sure we would again. She does have issues, and is not an ideal family (although never aggressive of anything)

I think there is a major problem with crosses such as the Pomsky, (Pomeranian x Husky) because they look very cute as puppies, and novice owners tend to fall for them, helped by tenacious breeders. Often, they cannot care for them, as the husky side is still there, or sometimes they are simple sold to the unsuspecting novices as pure huskies.

I think a health check is a good idea, and I think actually people should need a licence to breed at all, and dogs to be bred from should have some form of certificate to eliminate indiscriminate breeding. (Slightly on the fence though, as our rescue puppy cross if absolutely without doubt the most wonderful dog ever)

RE the taking a long time to form a new breed, that is very true, and one of the problems with these crosses is the inconsistencies from one dog to the next.

[Dizzy socks]

If someone wants to actively pursue a breed to fit a niche, thats awesome. If they are actively titling their dogs, health testing their dogs for all the genetic problems in both breeds, keeping an outstanding record pedigree and stud book.. By all means! I have no issue with this. I do have an issue with " Free puppies! Chi-pom mixes!" or " Fully vetted doodles! $1000!" in the news papers. I do have a problem with "This doodle mix is fully hypoallergenic! They don't shed, ever! These mixes are more healthy!" Outrageous claims from folks that are profiting off of their dogs reproductive organs, or people that throw dogs together that are cute.

This paragraph^^ - just total agreement. Dogs should be bred on their own merits, in terms of health, conformation, and temperament, not to fill the owners pockets by cheap breeding.

Why not working purposes? By what do we judge a dogs breeding worth if not by how well it can perform; talking about mixed breeds. How well it does in the show ring; you can't show them. How correct its breed temperament; they don't have a set breed temperament. Now if you take a dog purposefully bred for hog hunting that excells at hog hunting and want to breed to a bitch that also excells at hunting hogs.. Awesome! The same goes for herding and coursing prey. There are breeds that fill working purposes, however, how many hunters and farmers are truly going to go to a good breeder (the only way to ensure proper breed temperment) and spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on a dog when they have a perfectly decent hunting cur already in their back yard and a perfectly awesome bitch that has already proven herself in the field time and time again? I don't have a problem with these people breeding becasue these aren't the type of dogs going to 'pet only' homes. If someone is breeding for an actual purpose and their dogs can back themselves up doing what they were bred to do.. Thats amazing. Many hog dogs are sighthound/mastiff mixes or hound/bully type dogs because these are the breeds that have created dogs suited to the task (where most other breeds truly aren't. To heavy, to light, to slow, not strong enough, not tenacious enough.). Its not uncommon for hunting courser to use long dogs or lurchers for rabbit work. Farms commonly use a mix of herding breeds and sometime outcross to sighthounds for added speed.

Its also not always about achieving a 'breed' but more of a 'type'.

See here, I also mainly agree.

Ours 'cockapoo' (personally I prefer just poodle x cocker spaniel) is not an example of an exemplary dog. She has nice conformation, yes, but her coat means she is hot in summer, and cold in winter, and must be clipped regularly. Snow also balls up on her, and she becomes weighed down with water. So not ideal for a breed, I would say (Not that all breeds are, I believe). However, she does have the retrieving instinct if the spaniel in her, but she is a...wuss.

See, I have very limited experience with regards to working dogs ( I know many working collies and Labradors, but no true hunters). I know that well bred working Labradors command a high price, as people know they can do the job they wish them to do.

I think the main thing is that dog should be bred for a purpose, be it working or as a pet, not simply for fun or to make money.

[Jazi]

Of course she must be clipped regularly. She is part poodle.

I'm amazed at how many people buy doodles and then don't realize that the "non-shedding" trade-off is that they need to be groomed on a regular basis. I'm amazed at how many matted doodles I've seen because people either don't know or don't care about grooming requirements.

This is what people mean when they say "the best of both breeds" doesn't exist. Genetics don't pick only the good genes.

[Angelus Gaston]

@Dizzy Socks: I see no point in purposfully breeding mutts outside of working purpose. Mixed breeds do not get the best of both breeds, thats not how genetics work.

See I find this interesting. New breeds are formed by the amalgamation of old, yes? And so theoretically, crosses that are successful can then later become breeds In their own right.

I think sometimes they can get the best of both. Sometimes no, but sometimes yes. One of mine certainly did. The other - not so much.
Why just working purposes? Or why that at all? If there is not a breed to fill the working void surely there should be by now??

If someone wants to actively pursue a breed to fit a niche, thats awesome. If they are actively titling their dogs, health testing their dogs for all the genetic problems in both breeds, keeping an outstanding record pedigree and stud book.. By all means! I have no issue with this. I do have an issue with " Free puppies! Chi-pom mixes!" or " Fully vetted doodles! $1000!" in the news papers. I do have a problem with "This doodle mix is fully hypoallergenic! They don't shed, ever! These mixes are more healthy!" Outrageous claims from folks that are profiting off of their dogs reproductive organs, or people that throw dogs together that are cute.

Why not working purposes? By what do we judge a dogs breeding worth if not by how well it can perform; talking about mixed breeds. How well it does in the show ring; you can't show them. How correct its breed temperament; they don't have a set breed temperament. Now if you take a dog purposefully bred for hog hunting that excells at hog hunting and want to breed to a bitch that also excells at hunting hogs.. Awesome! The same goes for herding and coursing prey. There are breeds that fill working purposes, however, how many hunters and farmers are truly going to go to a good breeder (the only way to ensure proper breed temperment) and spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on a dog when they have a perfectly decent hunting cur already in their back yard and a perfectly awesome bitch that has already proven herself in the field time and time again? I don't have a problem with these people breeding becasue these aren't the type of dogs going to 'pet only' homes. If someone is breeding for an actual purpose and their dogs can back themselves up doing what they were bred to do.. Thats amazing. Many hog dogs are sighthound/mastiff mixes or hound/bully type dogs because these are the breeds that have created dogs suited to the task (where most other breeds truly aren't. To heavy, to light, to slow, not strong enough, not tenacious enough.). Its not uncommon for hunting courser to use long dogs or lurchers for rabbit work. Farms commonly use a mix of herding breeds and sometime outcross to sighthounds for added speed.

Its also not always about achieving a 'breed' but more of a 'type'.

On the breeding of Lurchers and Long Dog I was told I should buy or rescue from someone else instead of breeding my own.

Know I kindly told them my reason's behind it and half of it was the fact that I didnt know what was going in to half the dogs being breed over here in the UK.
I can find several pages of Lurchers forsale half of them with questionable parent's, no proof of working capability or anything.Also half the bitches are only just 2 years.
With mine I know there capable of the work and also have a good temperament and I know the pedigree. Mana will be 4 or 5 before she has her first and only litter so I can run on a pup.
I think half the people I speak to dont beleave that you can treat the breeding of Lurchers the same way you can a pedigree dog with health test's and such with most its just a case of two Lurchers = a working Lurcher, they think I'm nuts for taking the Lurcher breeding as seriously as I do my GSD's.

[Dizzy socks]

Of course she must be clipped regularly. She is part poodle.

I'm amazed at how many people buy doodles and then don't realize that the "non-shedding" trade-off is that they need to be groomed on a regular basis. I'm amazed at how many matted doodles I've seen because people either don't know or don't care about grooming requirements.

This is what people mean when they say "the best of both breeds" doesn't exist. Genetics don't pick only the good genes.

Firstly the clipped regularly - yes, we knew this, and it was probably not an ideal thing to mention. Not that we groom - we basically just clip it all off an she is fine, much happier. Don't get me wrong - we don't begrudge clipping her or anything. Non shedding had nothing to do with us ending up with her. When we got her, we had pretty limited knowledge of ' designer breeds'.

I see why people say that. I don't think it does either, really. You shouldn't breed in the hope of this, as it won't happen.

However, I do have a dog that is, in my mind, the best if both breeds. I guess this is hard, because people perceive 'best' in different ways.

[Dizzy socks]

See I find this interesting. New breeds are formed by the amalgamation of old, yes? And so theoretically, crosses that are successful can then later become breeds In their own right.

I think sometimes they can get the best of both. Sometimes no, but sometimes yes. One of mine certainly did. The other - not so much.
Why just working purposes? Or why that at all? If there is not a breed to fill the working void surely there should be by now??

If someone wants to actively pursue a breed to fit a niche, thats awesome. If they are actively titling their dogs, health testing their dogs for all the genetic problems in both breeds, keeping an outstanding record pedigree and stud book.. By all means! I have no issue with this. I do have an issue with " Free puppies! Chi-pom mixes!" or " Fully vetted doodles! $1000!" in the news papers. I do have a problem with "This doodle mix is fully hypoallergenic! They don't shed, ever! These mixes are more healthy!" Outrageous claims from folks that are profiting off of their dogs reproductive organs, or people that throw dogs together that are cute.

Why not working purposes? By what do we judge a dogs breeding worth if not by how well it can perform; talking about mixed breeds. How well it does in the show ring; you can't show them. How correct its breed temperament; they don't have a set breed temperament. Now if you take a dog purposefully bred for hog hunting that excells at hog hunting and want to breed to a bitch that also excells at hunting hogs.. Awesome! The same goes for herding and coursing prey. There are breeds that fill working purposes, however, how many hunters and farmers are truly going to go to a good breeder (the only way to ensure proper breed temperment) and spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on a dog when they have a perfectly decent hunting cur already in their back yard and a perfectly awesome bitch that has already proven herself in the field time and time again? I don't have a problem with these people breeding becasue these aren't the type of dogs going to 'pet only' homes. If someone is breeding for an actual purpose and their dogs can back themselves up doing what they were bred to do.. Thats amazing. Many hog dogs are sighthound/mastiff mixes or hound/bully type dogs because these are the breeds that have created dogs suited to the task (where most other breeds truly aren't. To heavy, to light, to slow, not strong enough, not tenacious enough.). Its not uncommon for hunting courser to use long dogs or lurchers for rabbit work. Farms commonly use a mix of herding breeds and sometime outcross to sighthounds for added speed.

Its also not always about achieving a 'breed' but more of a 'type'.

On the breeding of Lurchers and Long Dog I was told I should buy or rescue from someone else instead of breeding my own.

Know I kindly told them my reason's behind it and half of it was the fact that I didnt know what was going in to half the dogs being breed over here in the UK.
I can find several pages of Lurchers forsale half of them with questionable parent's, no proof of working capability or anything.Also half the bitches are only just 2 years.
With mine I know there capable of the work and also have a good temperament and I know the pedigree. Mana will be 4 or 5 before she has her first and only litter so I can run on a pup.
I think half the people I speak to dont beleave that you can treat the breeding of Lurchers the same way you can a pedigree dog with health test's and such with most its just a case of two Lurchers = a working Lurcher, they think I'm nuts for taking the Lurcher breeding as seriously as I do my GSD's.

I'm also in the UK - and know exactly what you mean. Websites such as Dragon Driving are a haven for these type of breeders.
I think you are right about the way people perceive lurches - they need the same consideration before breeding as any other dog.

Side note - Lurchers are amazing,

[Jazi]

The last two paragraphs were more just my astonishment at how many people don't realize that their poodle mixes actually need to be groomed. Um, hello, they are POODLE mixes. It's like being surprised that a longhaired dog would make more longhaired dogs. Just a little bit of "duh???" I suppose. I've seen a lot of matted doodles in my area and every since one of their owners looks at me like I've grown two heads when I mention regular grooming. Eventually these dogs are taken to a groomers and they've got sores and maggots under the mats. I had one lady start laughing about how she took her one labradoodle in to be groomed for the first time in 5 years and they took off a couple pounds of mats, dirt, and maggots. I told her I felt bad for the dog.

People in my area (and I've heard, all over really) get doodles very commonly for a "non-shedding" dog. They either get a dog that still sheds, or a dog that is non-shedding but must be groomed regularly. Then they don't groom their dog, so it mats.

TBH, I really don't understand what a doodle can do that a poodle can't.

[Dizzy socks]

The last two paragraphs were more just my astonishment at how many people don't realize that their poodle mixes actually need to be groomed. Um, hello, they are POODLE mixes. It's like being surprised that a longhaired dog would make more longhaired dogs. Just a little bit of "duh???" I suppose. I've seen a lot of matted doodles in my area and every since one of their owners looks at me like I've grown two heads when I mention regular grooming. Eventually these dogs are taken to a groomers and they've got sores and maggots under the mats. I had one lady start laughing about how she took her one labradoodle in to be groomed for the first time in 5 years and they took off a couple pounds of mats, dirt, and maggots. I told her I felt bad for the dog.

People in my area (and I've heard, all over really) get doodles very commonly for a "non-shedding" dog. They either get a dog that still sheds, or a dog that is non-shedding but must be groomed regularly. Then they don't groom their dog, so it mats.

TBH, I really don't understand what a doodle can do that a poodle can't.

That's really sad. Ours has never been allowed to get to that state.I mean, we just clip if ever it becomes too hot for her, or I lares her vision. It never mats or anything tho, as it is more wavy due to the spaniel influence.

I think we have one if these rather than a poodle is just because the coat is easier to deal with, and generally, (I'm aware this is shallow) more aesthetically pleasing. Having also had a spaniel before, we were fairly fond of them, and though it might be a good influence on the poodle.

Somewhere, however, the Iintelligence (I believe poodles are fairly intelligent generally?) was lost. She is lovely, but like a forever puppy.

[Saracirce]

The last two paragraphs were more just my astonishment at how many people don't realize that their poodle mixes actually need to be groomed. Um, hello, they are POODLE mixes. It's like being surprised that a longhaired dog would make more longhaired dogs. Just a little bit of "duh???" I suppose. I've seen a lot of matted doodles in my area and every since one of their owners looks at me like I've grown two heads when I mention regular grooming. Eventually these dogs are taken to a groomers and they've got sores and maggots under the mats. I had one lady start laughing about how she took her one labradoodle in to be groomed for the first time in 5 years and they took off a couple pounds of mats, dirt, and maggots. I told her I felt bad for the dog.

People in my area (and I've heard, all over really) get doodles very commonly for a "non-shedding" dog. They either get a dog that still sheds, or a dog that is non-shedding but must be groomed regularly. Then they don't groom their dog, so it mats.

TBH, I really don't understand what a doodle can do that a poodle can't.

That's really sad. Ours has never been allowed to get to that state.I mean, we just clip if ever it becomes too hot for her, or I lares her vision. It never mats or anything tho, as it is more wavy due to the spaniel influence.

I think we have one if these rather than a poodle is just because the coat is easier to deal with, and generally, (I'm aware this is shallow) more aesthetically pleasing. Having also had a spaniel before, we were fairly fond of them, and though it might be a good influence on the poodle.

Somewhere, however, the Iintelligence (I believe poodles are fairly intelligent generally?) was lost. She is lovely, but like a forever puppy.

that's a matter of opinion. I actually adore the poodle curls. I absolutely hate 'doodles' however. Also, spaniel's do mat. I'm just saying.

[Angelus Gaston]

Think my all time shock breed that I saw advertised was a Poodle x GSD I was like what the Hades are you people playing at I did not see the point. Wish I still had the ad it was amazing how honest they were with the fact that it was to see what they made.