animal rights vs animal welfare

[косатка]

I'm really struggling with the fact that you're basically implying here that domestic animals live better lives than wild animals. If you're talking about dogs or cats, sure. If you're talking about basically any other animal that we've domesticated, absolutely not. Again, it comes down to the majority. It's estimated that there are around 500-900 million dogs in the world, of those, only about 25% actually live in homes, the rest are street dogs. Compare this to the 10 billion animals who die every single year in factory farms alone. Yes, I'm bringing up factory farms again because even though everyone here says they don't like them, most still continue to support them anyway. Meat = factory farms. There's no way to get around it unless you spend lots of money to buy from a local farm or raise your own animals.

Cruelty is inherent to the wild, but it is not inherent to captivity. Yes, people buy meat from factory farms and I believe that should change. Because I support animal welfare. When I say that domestic animals are lucky, I am referring to some pets and local farms (honestly most pets aren't taken great care of either) because middle earth was arguing against humane local farms as well. But yes most people in the US buy cheap meat from factory farms, just like most people buy cheap produce harvested from slave labor in poorer countries. This is a deeper issue that goes beyond animal rights and animal welfare. Smaller farms are forced to up their prices and struggle to make a living. People aren't paid enough and people are exploited. Most of us are practically forced to support animal abuse and human exploitation. This isn't just an animal welfare or rights issue, it is also a human rights issue.
And I do plan to raise animals and support local farms when I am better off.
The amount of dogs in the world is another big welfare issue, agreed. I believe proper and enforced regulation should be put in place for breeders to help reduce the population of dogs and cats, as well as efforts to remove strays off the street. Because I support animal welfare.

When I say I support animal rights, I don't say the right to live because that is way too vague. I want and fight for the same rights that other animals such as dogs and cats receive. If a dog is abused, starved, or kept in unfit conditions, then they are taken from the home and the owner is fined. We understand as a society that it is wrong and immoral to mistreat an animal. I think most of this comes from the fact that a lot of us see and interact with dogs or cats on a daily basis. However, the only interaction most people have with cows, pigs, and chickens is when they are sitting on a plate in front of us. So thinking of them as anything other than a meal is considered radical. I want people to recognize that when it comes to feeling pain, loss, happiness, and anything else, that farmed animals are no different than the pets we keep in our homes and to treat them as anything less is just not right.

I'm a bit confused, because this sounds like you support animal welfare. I agree with this. Farm animals deserve to be cared for just like cats and dogs. The animal welfare vs. animal rights terms are similar to the "pro-life" vs. "pro-choice" terms. Someone who is pro-choice isn't anti-life, someone who is pro-life isn't necessarily anti-choice. People who support animal rights would support the welfare of animals. Someone who supports animal welfare supports some "rights" for animals as well. One can argue that the "5 freedoms" are rights for animals. But its more than that. The terms refer to more complex ideologies.
Unless you are making the point that we don't eat cats and dogs, and therefore we shouldn't eat livestock either. However, I'm totally down to eat some humanely raised dog or cat.

Also, as for natives, the Inuits, Yupik, and Sami peoples rely heavily on meat, especially during the harsh winters.

[PARK]

the fact that anyone automatically jumps to "factory farming" when farms are brought up is like... laughable. you're really reaching.

anyway, yeah, factory farms are terrible. the beef and leather industry are horrid. factory pig farms are some of the most unethical livestock businesses. but they're not the only types of farms? small(er) family farms also exist and the animals are usually very well taken care of because otherwise, they won't produce goods and the family won't make money to live off of. they can't afford to have unhealthy livestock like factory farms can. the relationship is mutually beneficial.

In the US, 95% of all animal products come from factory farms, honestly just look it up. Family farms are few and far between simply because they don't make enough money. So to say that factory farming is terrible and horrible while also eating meat is hypocritical. You are directly supporting the thing you call bad. You also said that you're "poor as hell and can't afford to live off a vegetarian/vegan diet". Dude, I saved money when I cut out meat, it's literally the most expensive part of most diets. Just make the food you normally do except without the meat. Spaghetti with no meatballs, chicken noodle soup without the chicken and a vegetable-based broth, cheese instead of pepperoni pizza, or a peanut butter and jelly sandwich instead of a ham and cheese sandwich. It's not difficult or expensive, it's just change.

I also don't understand what native people you're talking about in some of your other posts. If you're referring to native Americans in the US then you're very wrong again. My grandmother is Lakota and she made it her mission to get me involved in my family's traditions. There is no "hunting to survive", we don't live in teepees out in the wild. We live in houses in neighborhoods and shop in grocery stores the same as you. The only hunting done in the US is by those privileged enough to have the time and resources to do so.

yeah, uhh, i've done the math. with my health problems and the fact that, yes, i'm poor as hell, i cannot afford to be on a vegan diet. supplemental vitamins are expensive. fresh veggies are expensive when you need to buy enough to get you through the week. i literally don't care if you're vegan/vegetarian/whatever. stop pushing your stupid moral high beliefs on other people to make them feel evil for eating meat lmao. i like meat. beef is great. oh, and uhh studies have shown that plants can feel "pain" and "fear" too, in their own way. what, are you going to eat dirt now? sand? oh wait, those have living microorganisms living in them too. so does air. what now? starve? :p not to mention the fact that pesticides used on crops to kill mice and bees do, in fact, kill mice and bees. sooo, isn't that "murder" to you? or do you not care? or do you just conveniently forget about that? hmm...

and i never implied that all native people live in teepees. but some do live out in the wild in small groups, not necessarily in teepees or igloos bc i know that's a stereotype, i'm not stupid lol, but sustainable hunting is still a thing within and outside of the US by native people. you and your family's experiences are not universal. as you'd say, "honestly just look it up". your ignorance is showing.

[косатка]

The only hunting done in the US is by those privileged enough to have the time and resources to do so.

Also... no no no nononono.
Here in Louisiana there is a loooot of people who live in poverty and hunt to sustain themselves. These people aren't "privileged".

Also, what should our pets eat? I have a ball python and he NEEDS meat. Cats and ferrets are obligate carnivores. Dogs can go vegan or vegetarian but it can be difficult to get right and puts strain on their digestive system overtime since they evolved to mostly eat meat. And with your vegan/vegetarian alternatives, you failed to take nutrition into account. Where do vegans get B12 in a usable form? Or a sufficient amount of omega-3s (DHA)? Going vegan isn't just about cutting out meat and animal byproducts. It is also about finding nutritionally adequate alternatives which can be difficult and time consuming and sometimes mentally exhausting for some people.

I'm quite bewildered that you think that all natives live the way we do. Sure, many natives live lives like you and I do. But many natives live a traditional lifestyle. Not even just natives. Some people live out quite far from cities and need to be self-sufficient. Not everyone lives in suburbs and cities.

[|Winter|]

the fact that anyone automatically jumps to "factory farming" when farms are brought up is like... laughable. you're really reaching.

anyway, yeah, factory farms are terrible. the beef and leather industry are horrid. factory pig farms are some of the most unethical livestock businesses. but they're not the only types of farms? small(er) family farms also exist and the animals are usually very well taken care of because otherwise, they won't produce goods and the family won't make money to live off of. they can't afford to have unhealthy livestock like factory farms can. the relationship is mutually beneficial.

In the US, 95% of all animal products come from factory farms, honestly just look it up. Family farms are few and far between simply because they don't make enough money. So to say that factory farming is terrible and horrible while also eating meat is hypocritical. You are directly supporting the thing you call bad. You also said that you're "poor as hell and can't afford to live off a vegetarian/vegan diet". Dude, I saved money when I cut out meat, it's literally the most expensive part of most diets. Just make the food you normally do except without the meat. Spaghetti with no meatballs, chicken noodle soup without the chicken and a vegetable-based broth, cheese instead of pepperoni pizza, or a peanut butter and jelly sandwich instead of a ham and cheese sandwich. It's not difficult or expensive, it's just change.

I also don't understand what native people you're talking about in some of your other posts. If you're referring to native Americans in the US then you're very wrong again. My grandmother is Lakota and she made it her mission to get me involved in my family's traditions. There is no "hunting to survive", we don't live in teepees out in the wild. We live in houses in neighborhoods and shop in grocery stores the same as you. The only hunting done in the US is by those privileged enough to have the time and resources to do so.

yeah, uhh, i've done the math. with my health problems and the fact that, yes, i'm poor as hell, i cannot afford to be on a vegan diet. supplemental vitamins are expensive. fresh veggies are expensive when you need to buy enough to get you through the week. i literally don't care if you're vegan/vegetarian/whatever. stop pushing your stupid moral high beliefs on other people to make them feel evil for eating meat lmao. i like meat. beef is great. oh, and uhh studies have shown that plants can feel "pain" and "fear" too, in their own way. what, are you going to eat dirt now? sand? oh wait, those have living microorganisms living in them too. so does air. what now? starve? :p not to mention the fact that pesticides used on crops to kill mice and bees do, in fact, kill mice and bees. sooo, isn't that "murder" to you? or do you not care? or do you just conveniently forget about that? hmm...

and i never implied that all native people live in teepees. but some do live out in the wild in small groups, not necessarily in teepees or igloos bc i know that's a stereotype, i'm not stupid lol, but sustainable hunting is still a thing within and outside of the US by native people. you and your family's experiences are not universal. as you'd say, "honestly just look it up". your ignorance is showing.

Those are all just excuses. If you want to talk health problems, I can tell you about how I survived cancer that should've killed me - twice. Or about my lifelong heart condition that makes it difficult for me to do even the simplest tasks sometimes. Or I can talk about my sister who is allergic to many forms of starch yet she still manages to live a healthy vegetarian life. I've already given you a few options as to what a cheap vegetarian diet could look like. I'll admit that full veganism takes a bit more effort and sometimes more money, but I've even had friends who were at times homeless, yet they still managed to keep a vegan diet because they believed it was the right thing to do. I firmly believe that you really wanted to, you could find a way. You just don't really want to.

There really is so much wrong with that first paragraph so sorry if I sound kinda rambly. I'm not pushing my beliefs on anyone. I'm telling you straight facts that you seem to like to ignore. I also want you to recognize that at times, what you're saying is very hypocritical because you can't say something is wrong while at the same time directly adding to the problem, it just doesn't make sense. And my goodness can we all please stop saying that plants feel pain. Do they have a brain? Do they have a nervous system? Do they have nerve endings? No, no, and no. They don't feel pain. Responding to an environment is different than feeling pain. But even if this was true, by eating meat, you are actually "killing" more plants than I am. What do you think your food eats? Beef specifically is one of the most inefficient food products out there. It takes anywhere from 3 to 12 pounds of grain to produce a single pound of beef (depending on your source).

Nonetheless, being vegan is about doing the least amount of harm possible. You're right, to be completely morally "right" I would have to not exist because there are no perfect people in this world. And I totally agree that meat is delicious. Burgers were my absolute favorite food before I found out how harmful it is to the animals, the environment, and frankly my own body. However, there is only so much that I can do. I choose to do veganism because that has a large and direct effect on hundreds of animals each year, because again, veganism is about doing the least harm possible, not being a perfect person.

I never said my experiences were universal. I said specifically "If you're referring to native Americans in the US". I can't speak for others outside of my experiences and if it seemed like I was speaking on their behalf, then I apologize, but I don't think calling me ignorant has much to do with anything.

[|Winter|]

The only hunting done in the US is by those privileged enough to have the time and resources to do so.

Also... no no no nononono.
Here in Louisiana there is a loooot of people who live in poverty and hunt to sustain themselves. These people aren't "privileged".

Also, what should our pets eat? I have a ball python and he NEEDS meat. Cats and ferrets are obligate carnivores. Dogs can go vegan or vegetarian but it can be difficult to get right and puts strain on their digestive system overtime since they evolved to mostly eat meat. And with your vegan/vegetarian alternatives, you failed to take nutrition into account. Where do vegans get B12 in a usable form? Or a sufficient amount of omega-3s (DHA)? Going vegan isn't just about cutting out meat and animal byproducts. It is also about finding nutritionally adequate alternatives which can be difficult and time consuming and sometimes mentally exhausting for some people.

I'm quite bewildered that you think that all natives live the way we do. Sure, many natives live lives like you and I do. But many natives live a traditional lifestyle. Not even just natives. Some people live out quite far from cities and need to be self-sufficient. Not everyone lives in suburbs and cities.

Sorry, I'll respond to the first post you did later. I'm leaving for work in like 20 minutes but I wanted to respond to this one really quick. I have absolutely no quarrel with animals eating meat. I work in wildlife rehabilitation with animals that are required to eat meat and I have no problem with that specifically because they require it. Humans on the other hand, just don't. The only reason we eat it is because it tastes good. Yes, there are a very small amount of people who say they require it for health reasons, but in general, humans don't need meat to survive the way animals do.

As for supplements, I take B12 twice a week (this $10 bottle lasts me about 6 months) and a DHA capsule three times a week (this $17 bottle also lasts me about 6 months). None of this is really time consuming or mentally exhausting, especially when there are so many valuable resources and vegan starter guides available to anyone who's willing to spend 10-15 minutes looking. I also don't think all natives live the same way I do. Again, I very specifically referred to my own experiences.

[PARK]

Those are all just excuses. If you want to talk health problems, I can tell you about how I survived cancer that should've killed me - twice. Or about my lifelong heart condition that makes it difficult for me to do even the simplest tasks sometimes. Or I can talk about my sister who is allergic to many forms of starch yet she still manages to live a healthy vegetarian life. I've already given you a few options as to what a cheap vegetarian diet could look like. I'll admit that full veganism takes a bit more effort and sometimes more money, but I've even had friends who were at times homeless, yet they still managed to keep a vegan diet because they believed it was the right thing to do. I firmly believe that you really wanted to, you could find a way. You just don't really want to.

There really is so much wrong with that first paragraph so sorry if I sound kinda rambly. I'm not pushing my beliefs on anyone. I'm telling you straight facts that you seem to like to ignore. I also want you to recognize that at times, what you're saying is very hypocritical because you can't say something is wrong while at the same time directly adding to the problem, it just doesn't make sense. And my goodness can we all please stop saying that plants feel pain. Do they have a brain? Do they have a nervous system? Do they have nerve endings? No, no, and no. They don't feel pain. Responding to an environment is different than feeling pain. But even if this was true, by eating meat, you are actually "killing" more plants than I am. What do you think your food eats? Beef specifically is one of the most inefficient food products out there. It takes anywhere from 3 to 12 pounds of grain to produce a single pound of beef (depending on your source).

Nonetheless, being vegan is about doing the least amount of harm possible. You're right, to be completely morally "right" I would have to not exist because there are no perfect people in this world. And I totally agree that meat is delicious. Burgers were my absolute favorite food before I found out how harmful it is to the animals, the environment, and frankly my own body. However, there is only so much that I can do. I choose to do veganism because that has a large and direct effect on hundreds of animals each year, because again, veganism is about doing the least harm possible, not being a perfect person.

I never said my experiences were universal. I said specifically "If you're referring to native Americans in the US". I can't speak for others outside of my experiences and if it seemed like I was speaking on their behalf, then I apologize, but I don't think calling me ignorant has much to do with anything.

k, then to make this easy, i wanna eat meat. idc about being a vegetarian or vegan. i'd LOVE to someday have my own small farm (mostly hobby but maybe one or two beef cows that i can slaughter for meat for myself and local people). yeah, again i say the beef industry is horrible. i'm still gonna eat meat :p it's delicious, it's healthy. i don't eat it every day, i'm not one of those "carnivore diet" people because that's stupid. in fact, i love fruits and veggies and would love to have more greens in my diet! but meat is amazing and i love eating it. you go ahead and be a vegan. i'll keep eating animals because i have to, while acknowledging that the meat industry is bad, that i'd love to do something about it but for the time being, i can't.

my bf wants to go vegetarian, i support him. meat makes him physically ill a lot of the time so he'll be doing it for his health, but we can't afford it right now. that's that. just because you've "had homeless friends who could afford to go vegan" (lol) doesn't mean we can. we live in a really expensive city, are both disabled and not currently working, unable to receive government financial support like food stamps. he'd agree with me that you're being ignorant.

[косатка]

Sorry, I'll respond to the first post you did later. I'm leaving for work in like 20 minutes but I wanted to respond to this one really quick. I have absolutely no quarrel with animals eating meat. I work in wildlife rehabilitation with animals that are required to eat meat and I have no problem with that specifically because they require it. Humans on the other hand, just don't. The only reason we eat it is because it tastes good. Yes, there are a very small amount of people who say they require it for health reasons, but in general, humans don't need meat to survive the way animals do.

As for supplements, I take B12 twice a week (this $10 bottle lasts me about 6 months) and a DHA capsule three times a week (this $17 bottle also lasts me about 6 months). None of this is really time consuming or mentally exhausting, especially when there are so many valuable resources and vegan starter guides available to anyone who's willing to spend 10-15 minutes looking. I also don't think all natives live the same way I do. Again, I very specifically referred to my own experiences.

I generally don't trust supplements since they are not well regulated. I only take vitamin D capsules prescribed by my doctor. Plus, again, some people need to be self-sufficient to survive. Also, some people are already needing to take many prescription medications. They shouldn't have to keep track of more pills (also some supplements can interact with drugs).
And those people who need meat for medical reasons are valid. It may be a small percentage of people, but it is actually a loooot of people. For example, just a measly 1% of the population in the US is over 3 million people. Without meat many people will suffer.

Also, this is all ignoring the fact that I have no moral qualm with meat. You do and that's fine, you do you, but I don't.
I don't find death cruel. The reason killing humans and pets is cruel isn't necessarily because of the death (the victim is incapable of caring, after all), it is the impact is has on the families and the fear it instills in a society. Killing animals does not have the same affect.

[Ancient Frost]

the fact that anyone automatically jumps to "factory farming" when farms are brought up is like... laughable. you're really reaching.

anyway, yeah, factory farms are terrible. the beef and leather industry are horrid. factory pig farms are some of the most unethical livestock businesses. but they're not the only types of farms? small(er) family farms also exist and the animals are usually very well taken care of because otherwise, they won't produce goods and the family won't make money to live off of. they can't afford to have unhealthy livestock like factory farms can. the relationship is mutually beneficial.

In the US, 95% of all animal products come from factory farms, honestly just look it up. Family farms are few and far between simply because they don't make enough money. So to say that factory farming is terrible and horrible while also eating meat is hypocritical. You are directly supporting the thing you call bad. You also said that you're "poor as hell and can't afford to live off a vegetarian/vegan diet". Dude, I saved money when I cut out meat, it's literally the most expensive part of most diets. Just make the food you normally do except without the meat. Spaghetti with no meatballs, chicken noodle soup without the chicken and a vegetable-based broth, cheese instead of pepperoni pizza, or a peanut butter and jelly sandwich instead of a ham and cheese sandwich. It's not difficult or expensive, it's just change.

I also don't understand what native people you're talking about in some of your other posts. If you're referring to native Americans in the US then you're very wrong again. My grandmother is Lakota and she made it her mission to get me involved in my family's traditions. There is no "hunting to survive", we don't live in teepees out in the wild. We live in houses in neighborhoods and shop in grocery stores the same as you. The only hunting done in the US is by those privileged enough to have the time and resources to do so.

Domestication is just a part of our evolution. There is nothing "unnatural" about it. And domesticated animals are very lucky. They get a relatively stress-free life, and a pain-free death (and please don't bring up factory farms again, no one here supports those). Wild animals live a life of stress and die painful deaths from illness, injuries, or from predators.

If we allowed murder, society wouldn't be able function. Whereas giving animals the "right to live"/"right to not die from humans" would have terrible consequences. They are not comparable. And as stated by the two above me, animals can't grasp the concept of death like we can.

I'm really struggling with the fact that you're basically implying here that domestic animals live better lives than wild animals. If you're talking about dogs or cats, sure. If you're talking about basically any other animal that we've domesticated, absolutely not. Again, it comes down to the majority. It's estimated that there are around 500-900 million dogs in the world, of those, only about 25% actually live in homes, the rest are street dogs. Compare this to the 10 billion animals who die every single year in factory farms alone. Yes, I'm bringing up factory farms again because even though everyone here says they don't like them, most still continue to support them anyway. Meat = factory farms. There's no way to get around it unless you spend lots of money to buy from a local farm or raise your own animals.

When I say I support animal rights, I don't say the right to live because that is way too vague. I want and fight for the same rights that other animals such as dogs and cats receive. If a dog is abused, starved, or kept in unfit conditions, then they are taken from the home and the owner is fined. We understand as a society that it is wrong and immoral to mistreat an animal. I think most of this comes from the fact that a lot of us see and interact with dogs or cats on a daily basis. However, the only interaction most people have with cows, pigs, and chickens is when they are sitting on a plate in front of us. So thinking of them as anything other than a meal is considered radical. I want people to recognize that when it comes to feeling pain, loss, happiness, and anything else, that farmed animals are no different than the pets we keep in our homes and to treat them as anything less is just not right.

Family farms are a bit more expensive but still not expensive. There are fewer family farms but they are not to hard to find. Many cities hold farmers' markets and those or from family farms. Also, if you raise the right animals, it is pretty cheap to raise your own animals. It does take a fair amount of time but I raise rabbits for meat and do schooling and a job. I hope to move over to framing entirely but I can't right now. Also, "Meat = factory farms" is inaccurate. You said so yourself because family farms exist so you can have meat without factory farms. The last thing, I'm a bit confused on what you said about native people. There are native people all over the world, not just the US and many of them still maintain their traditions out of respect for nature and their ancestors. It is the commercial industry that causes extinction in mass, not hunters. Many more modern hunters hunt for the same reasons.

[chanel]

I'm for animal rights, not animal welfare. I understand that a lot of people don't see animals as I do and opinions will always vary when it comes to ethics.. but imo people shouldn't be able to have opinions concerning the lives of others. It doesn't matter if you think you're racist, ableist or specieist. Nobody should get to dictate how others should live or how others should die. Sorry if my language is kinda strong. I'm just very passionate about this subject.

So yes, this means that I think horseback riding is wrong, keeping pets is wrong, eating animals is wrong and using service animals is wrong. I know a lot of people (even vegans) don't want to touch the service animal subject because it involves disabled people, but I will: if you use a service animal, you don't care about animals as individuals.

You might have the same type of condescending love someone may have for a pet, but by having a service animal you're saying "I don't care about your freedom, I don't care about your own desires, I only care about what you can do for me" because actions speak louder than words. You are castrating an animal, manipulating it into doing what you want it to do and otherwise taking advantage of it because you decided you were more important.

Why not have 'service children' while we're at it? Make them eunuchs, then 'train' them to do tasks for you. It's okay though. The child is less intelligent than you are and he doesn't understand what he's missing out on and can't comprehend that he's being manipulated and used. You are more important so it's OK and anyway, you give him chocolate for his efforts and take him swimming sometimes.

you're acting as if service dogs don't get to be dogs. i have a medical alert service dog and i can tell you right now that she is healthy and happy. she is definitely taken better care of than most pets. but i guess i don't care about animals because i have a service dog boohoo you just sound like a plain old ableist to me.

as for animal rights vs animal welfare, I'm all for welfare. I've taken a lot of agricultural classes and even did a presentation about this in one of my classes. organizations like PETA and HSUS are extremely harmful, they spread false information like anti service dogs and anti dog sledding (and plenty of more, just google it lol). to all of you who support animal rights, i suggest you read some of temple grandins books or watch the movie about her.its an eye opener into the animal industry

[Ancient Frost]

Cruelty is inherent to the wild, but it is not inherent to captivity. Yes, people buy meat from factory farms and I believe that should change. Because I support animal welfare. When I say that domestic animals are lucky, I am referring to some pets and local farms (honestly most pets aren't taken great care of either) because middle earth was arguing against humane local farms as well. But yes most people in the US buy cheap meat from factory farms, just like most people buy cheap produce harvested from slave labor in poorer countries. This is a deeper issue that goes beyond animal rights and animal welfare. Smaller farms are forced to up their prices and struggle to make a living. People aren't paid enough and people are exploited. Most of us are practically forced to support animal abuse and human exploitation. This isn't just an animal welfare or rights issue, it is also a human rights issue.
And I do plan to raise animals and support local farms when I am better off.
The amount of dogs in the world is another big welfare issue, agreed. I believe proper and enforced regulation should be put in place for breeders to help reduce the population of dogs and cats, as well as efforts to remove strays off the street. Because I support animal welfare.

I really liked what you said about many of these things going beyond rights vs welfare. Many of the things that vegans bring up for arguments are not black and white. People don't get paid enough to make the better choices for the environment, themselves, etc. They have to buy things that causes suffering, human and animal. Much of the crops made in the US are harvested by illegal immigrants that don't get paid enough to eat every day. People understand for the most part that these things, factory farms, slavery, etc. but the shift to the better options is going to be slow because of the way we have built our society. This argument is not black and white and people need to understand that and address the greys. So thanks for starting to do that.