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[bluesonata]

I can understand if they have to keep the animal because they have issues, like Winter, from the Clearwater Aquarium in FL, due to her having no tail, but if the have no issues with mental/physical health or population issues *cough cough* manatees *cough* *cough*, it is wrong. Let the animals run free.

100% agree! I don't mind aquariums unless they have orcas/dolphins. I would rather look at eels and cool tropical fish than a poor, bored (usually) dolphin/orca.

[bluesonata]

100% agree! I don't mind aquariums unless they have orcas/dolphins. I would rather look at eels and cool tropical fish than a poor, bored (usually) dolphin/orca.

What's the difference? By your logic, if animals are meant to be 'wild and free', that includes fish and invertebrates. What makes a cetacean 'better' or more deserving of life in the wild than an eel? How do you know the eel isn't bored too?

I myself am critical of much of cetacean captivity, but I find it hypocritical to not extend the criticism to other animals.

That's a good point, actually. Reading over my comment made me cringe, and putting thought to the matter, it is indeed hypocritical of myself to type that.
My point is, I don't support orca and dolphin captivity.

[bluesonata]

Well, has anyone seen the documentary Blackfish?

I haven't yet, but I have watched the trailer. It's about Killer WHales in captivity, and it's pretty sad.
It focuses on Tilikum, the orca who killed Dawn the trainer during a show.

There was a lady on the news saying,

"How would you feel if you were kept in a bathtub for over forty years?"

I've never actually looked at marine animals and especially Orcas in captivity this way, but it's pretty sad.

MY FINAL OPINION:
It's not so bad, just as long as SeaWorld or other zoos/aquariums/sactuaries don't capture orcas and marine animals from the wild directly. If they're captive born, then it's not so bad.
Also, they should at least have a deep enough tank that's large enough and isn't just a cement thing with a glass wall. It should be realistic, and like an "enclosure" more than just a "tank".

LONG LIVE TILIKUM! <3

Blackfish has false information in it, and relies on shocking you. (I think.) But this documentary is a touchy topic for some.

Orcas are beautiful animals that just don't belong in tiny tanks.

[SmokeyKitty]

I have a lot of thoughts on the entire subject of cetacean captivity in particular, but I'll try to keep it short and sweet and avoid blabbering on forever. (I also apologize if my thoughts are all over the place and random, that's how my mind works sometimes.)

First off, I believe there is a significant difference between keeping animals in captivity to help them and their wild counterparts, vs. keeping them in captivity for no reason other than to make money off exploiting them and that is what I believe the case is with [most] cetaceans (there are very, very few exceptions).

In my opinion, SeaWorld and other marine parks that hold cetaceans captive are built on the guise that these animals are 'thriving' and I've encountered way too many people who think that Orcas, as a whole, are endangered (which they are not). Their entire business is built off the whole Shamu crap, and yet Shamu's mother was killed during capture and Shamu died in 1971 but they continued to refer to all of their whales for *years* as Shamu to keep the so-called 'legacy' alive.

Marine parks are also one of the main reasons why the Southern Resident Killer Whales are struggling to survive today. In the 60's and 70's, SeaWorld and other marine parks removed entire generations of Southern Residents, all usually under the age of 4 years old, and many other whales died during captures. SeaWorld also promised around $10 million to help with research and recovery efforts surrounding the Southern Residents, but the researchers/scientists who have been studying these whales for several decades have yet to see any of that $10 mill, and now the SRKW's are battling against prey depletion, noise, and chemical pollution and one pod (K pod) hasn't produced any calves in a few years, while J pod and L pod have had numerous new calves born within the last year and a half.

Back to the topic of cetaceans in captivity, many facilities are extremely sub-par at best. Marineland of Canada is one of the worst and has had dozens and dozens of animals die under suspicious circumstances over the past 30+ years, and many of the animals they house today usually have a rather sickly appearance. One of those animals that died under suspicious circumstances, Junior, was kept in 'the warehouse' for several years and out of public view until he apparently died in 1994 due to "brain damage", though nobody has ever been told how that injury came to be and we probably never will know.

And after seeing how well cetacean captivity has gone over in other countries, Russia is also looking to capitalize on it and started capturing wild Orca in 2003 (I'm not 100% sure when they began capturing other cetacean species). Their first capture went horribly and several Orca died including the one female that they "successfully" captured, and they didn't capture any more Orca until 2010, but the only known orca captured that year managed to escape from it's sea pen. And then in 2012, they finally managed to keep a whale now known as Narnia. There was also an article released where some men from the capture team apparently stated that they kill any whales that get in the way of their captures. Whether that is really true or not is anyone's guess, but it's still an extremely scary thought.

Anyways, I'm going to stop because as you can probably tell I have a lot of thoughts on the subject and I don't want to make this novel longer than it already is. @_@

[SmokeyKitty]

Marineland of Canada is one of the worst and has had dozens and dozens of animals die under suspicious circumstances over the past 30+ years, and many of the animals they house today usually have a rather sickly appearance. One of those animals that died under suspicious circumstances, Junior, was kept in 'the warehouse' for several years and out of public view until he apparently died in 1994 due to "brain damage", though nobody has ever been told how that injury came to be and we probably never will know.

And after seeing how well cetacean captivity has gone over in other countries, Russia is also looking to capitalize on it and started capturing wild Orca in 2003 (I'm not 100% sure when they began capturing other cetacean species). Their first capture went horribly and several Orca died including the one female that they "successfully" captured, and they didn't capture any more Orca until 2010, but the only known orca captured that year managed to escape from it's sea pen. And then in 2012, they finally managed to keep a whale now known as Narnia. There was also an article released where some men from the capture team apparently stated that they kill any whales that get in the way of their captures. Whether that's really true or not is anyone's guess, but it's still an extremely scary thought.

^Everything you said 100%.^

I might as well add, Miami Seaquarium is considered by many to be the worst in the United States. Lolita the orca's tank is literally so small that it is in violation of federal regulations, but no-one's bothered to enforce it. It could also possibly be considered a violation that she has had no contact whatsoever with any other orca for decades, but the loophole is that she shares a tank with dolphins of a different species so she's technically not in isolation. Anyone with even the slightest knowledge about marine mammals or animal care in general should be able to tell that her tank, her enrichment, and her care overall, are by far inadequate. It doesn't amount to quite as awful as many foreign parks, but it is still completely unacceptable and cruel.

Maybe instead of Blackfish getting all the attention, someone should do a documentary on the true horrors that go on in places like these, so that these disgusting excuses for 'amusement parks' can get the negative media attention and subsequent boycotts/petitions/laws/etc. they deserve.

Lolita/Tokitae's situation is the one thing I can not get over. Her tank is clearly too small, and MSQ has been taken to court over and over and over but they refuse to do anything for her and it is completely mind boggling. Her tank is even smaller than the one that Keiko was housed in when he still lived in Mexico City!

It makes me even angrier that she is now protected under the Endangered Species Act with the rest of the Southern Residents, but the courts still won't help her. She is possibly the single best captive Orca who could potentially be rehabbed and released, too. Her family is the most heavily studied population of Orca on the planet, we have a strong guess on who her mother is, she is in good physical health (meaning her teeth are still perfect and she hasn't ground them down to the gums like almost every other captive Orca), and yet she continues to sit and waste away in that tiny little pool. I get fired up anytime I think about her.

[Gypaetus Barbatus]

Marineland of Canada is one of the worst and has had dozens and dozens of animals die under suspicious circumstances over the past 30+ years, and many of the animals they house today usually have a rather sickly appearance. One of those animals that died under suspicious circumstances, Junior, was kept in 'the warehouse' for several years and out of public view until he apparently died in 1994 due to "brain damage", though nobody has ever been told how that injury came to be and we probably never will know.

And after seeing how well cetacean captivity has gone over in other countries, Russia is also looking to capitalize on it and started capturing wild Orca in 2003 (I'm not 100% sure when they began capturing other cetacean species). Their first capture went horribly and several Orca died including the one female that they "successfully" captured, and they didn't capture any more Orca until 2010, but the only known orca captured that year managed to escape from it's sea pen. And then in 2012, they finally managed to keep a whale now known as Narnia. There was also an article released where some men from the capture team apparently stated that they kill any whales that get in the way of their captures. Whether that's really true or not is anyone's guess, but it's still an extremely scary thought.

^Everything you said 100%.^

I might as well add, Miami Seaquarium is considered by many to be the worst in the United States. Lolita the orca's tank is literally so small that it is in violation of federal regulations, but no-one's bothered to enforce it. It could also possibly be considered a violation that she has had no contact whatsoever with any other orca for decades, but the loophole is that she shares a tank with dolphins of a different species so she's technically not in isolation. Anyone with even the slightest knowledge about marine mammals or animal care in general should be able to tell that her tank, her enrichment, and her care overall, are by far inadequate. It doesn't amount to quite as awful as many foreign parks, but it is still completely unacceptable and cruel.

Maybe instead of Blackfish getting all the attention, someone should do a documentary on the true horrors that go on in places like these, so that these disgusting excuses for 'amusement parks' can get the negative media attention and subsequent boycotts/petitions/laws/etc. they deserve.

Lolita/Tokitae's situation is the one thing I can not get over. Her tank is clearly too small, and MSQ has been taken to court over and over and over but they refuse to do anything for her and it is completely mind boggling. Her tank is even smaller than the one that Keiko was housed in when he still lived in Mexico City!

It makes me even angrier that she is now protected under the Endangered Species Act with the rest of the Southern Residents, but the courts still won't help her. She is possibly the single best captive Orca who could potentially be rehabbed and released, too. Her family is the most heavily studied population of Orca on the planet, we have a strong guess on who her mother is, she is in good physical health (meaning her teeth are still perfect and she hasn't ground them down to the gums like almost every other captive Orca), and yet she continues to sit and waste away in that tiny little pool. I get fired up anytime I think about her.

She is not. Tokitae is probably one of the sickest orcas, perhaps. According to this Dodo article (a rather unreliable source, mind you), Lolita:
- "[Lolita] has been diagnosed with a pterygium, also called ‘surfer’s eye. Essentially, Lolita cannot escape the sunlight, so she’s getting to the point that she can’t even see."
- “chronically ill patient with frequently recurring infections and mildly impaired kidney function … This frequent medication can have, and may have already had, negative impacts on her liver and kidneys.”
- “Lolita appeared to be under a constant stream of medications, spanning from eye drops to antibiotics and heavy painkillers,”
- “In 2015 alone, there was not a day during the course of the year that she wasn’t under one or more medications"
- Lolita's teeth "they’re permanently damaged and have been drilled more than a dozen times to stave off infection".

Based purely on this, it eliminates all chances Lolita has to be potentially released. Besides all those points, Lolita has spent the majority of her life in captivity and like Keiko, could be so dependent on humans that she will never really learn how to be a proper wild killer whale, and therefor return to humans.

[SmokeyKitty]

I had not seen that article yet, but if that truly is the case, than full release is now extremely unlikely for her.

However, the bit about her teeth is very questionable at best because every picture of her that I have seen, the pulp is not exposed and so I don't know how they would even need to drill her teeth at all. In some pictures it looks like her very front teeth on her lower jaw could be damaged, but I've never noticed the pulp exposed on any of her teeth.

As far as Keiko's release goes, he was quite literally dying at Reino Aventura (vets claim he would have died within 3 months of his move) but was able to be rehabilitated. And while he did not fully re-integrate back into a wild pod, he was still observed interacting with wild Orca on numerous occasions but he was more used to human contact and actively sought it out on his own. Tokitae may not be that way.

I still believe it possible that she could be placed in a sea pen and monitored there, or, at the very least, moved to a retirement tank like the rehab tank built for Keiko.

(Here is the article in case anyone is interested in reading; but take everything with a grain of salt because The Dodo is not the most reliable source.)

[oceanmando]

I had not seen that article yet, but if that truly is the case, than full release is now extremely unlikely for her.

However, the bit about her teeth is very questionable at best because every picture of her that I have seen, the pulp is not exposed and so I don't know how they would even need to drill her teeth at all. In some pictures it looks like her very front teeth on her lower jaw could be damaged, but I've never noticed the pulp exposed on any of her teeth.

As far as Keiko's release goes, he was quite literally dying at Reino Aventura (vets claim he would have died within 3 months of his move) but was able to be rehabilitated. And while he did not fully re-integrate back into a wild pod, he was still observed interacting with wild Orca on numerous occasions but he was more used to human contact and actively sought it out on his own. Tokitae may not be that way.

I still believe it possible that she could be placed in a sea pen and monitored there, or, at the very least, moved to a retirement tank like the rehab tank built for Keiko.

(Here is the article in case anyone is interested in reading; but take everything with a grain of salt because The Dodo is not the most reliable source.)

One major factor that stands between Lolita and release is the fact that the wild SRKW (including her pod) are all endangered. Their food supply is very low and I don't think trying to release an orca who already would have a hard time hunting into an environment where food is scarce would be very wise.

[SmokeyKitty]

I had not seen that article yet, but if that truly is the case, than full release is now extremely unlikely for her.

However, the bit about her teeth is very questionable at best because every picture of her that I have seen, the pulp is not exposed and so I don't know how they would even need to drill her teeth at all. In some pictures it looks like her very front teeth on her lower jaw could be damaged, but I've never noticed the pulp exposed on any of her teeth.

As far as Keiko's release goes, he was quite literally dying at Reino Aventura (vets claim he would have died within 3 months of his move) but was able to be rehabilitated. And while he did not fully re-integrate back into a wild pod, he was still observed interacting with wild Orca on numerous occasions but he was more used to human contact and actively sought it out on his own. Tokitae may not be that way.

I still believe it possible that she could be placed in a sea pen and monitored there, or, at the very least, moved to a retirement tank like the rehab tank built for Keiko.

(Here is the article in case anyone is interested in reading; but take everything with a grain of salt because The Dodo is not the most reliable source.)

One major factor that stands between Lolita and release is the fact that the wild SRKW (including her pod) are all endangered. Their food supply is very low and I don't think trying to release an orca who already would have a hard time hunting into an environment where food is scarce would be very wise.

That is an extremely good point; but as I said, there is nothing preventing her from being moved to a sea pen or a retirement tank like the one that was built for Keiko. Her tank is notably smaller than the one Keiko was living in in Mexico City, and so I [personally] would like to at least see her be moved to a little more natural and spacious environment.

I would like to point out, though, that there are numerous petitions and groups working on helping wild SRKW regarding their prey depletion, which includes breaching the four lower Snake River dams. (link to my post because there are tons of groups working on this and therefore tons of links)

[SmokeyKitty]

It seems that Tokitae actually does have dental issues, just not as severe as other captive Orca. In 2011, this article was released saying that she was being treated for a tooth infection due to a "dental issue" she had in 1994.

Someone also told me that they'd seen an article or post somewhere saying that Toki had worn 'tooth caps' to hide or protect her damaged teeth, but they can't find the source and I've never heard of any captive wearing such things.

And in this picture, you can clearly see her very, very front teeth on her bottom jaw are damaged, though the rest of her teeth are still in great shape.

(Photo source)