(Announcement Pg 76) Demand Data Cloud

[amarok.]

I was about to pm you privately and bring up the same concern, Loeyla, but EI beat me to the punch.

You already know there's a lot of people calling this a "list" but I've had people pm me and tell me trades I've told them should have been fair have been declined for not being fair "by the new list". Whilst I admittedly to tend to give advice in a rarity biased way, people are now choosing to begin to trade that way and whilst this would be an excellent step in the right direction it doesn't make any difference if people still have this "gotta get more than the last person" mindset.

Didn't want to say much at first other than that I thought you should add a disclaimer to the front page but apparently that didn't help the issue because I had another load of PM's today about the issue. One in particular from a person who offered somebody three nons for a sunback and was told it wasn't fair despite the sunback actually only being worth one non. Their reasoning was that it was listed at 3-4 nons here, so they needed 4+ nons "for demand" otherwise it wasn't fair. It wasn't meant to be that way but that's how people took it.

Seriously, don't blame yourself. Anything that includes demand is bound to skew trading to the extreme eventually, I think, especially when it lists high demand values not everybody may be willing to pay. It imposes a bit of an unfair standard I think, and a bit of a precedent that if it doesn't match the value listed here that it's not fair even when it likely is.

Similarly, a lot of pets are minefields to value and demand should always be a personal thing. Whilst I liked the vagueness of the categories in many ways, people with too much greed for their own good will always manipulate what this says, or add extra on top of the standard going rate for "demand" anyway, as with the sunback.

We really ought to make a point of not telling people an offer is unfair just because they could get more for something. That was my largest critism of this list in a nutshell. It implied that the values given had to be met or a trade wasn't fair.

A joker is worth around a september list, roughly, by the ex list system. Anything above that is overpay. It's "high demand" doesn't change the fact that something like a sorbet is still overpay, nor does it make it any less fair to the joker owner. I've been called unrealistic and nitpicky for this by a number of people but again, we should be guiding the community by facts/estimations rather than just parroting off inflated demand values and letting them adjust those rarity-based values to suit themselves, rather than being told right from the offset exactly how much they should be overpaying by. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, we really do need to be slamming the brakes on inflated demand and whilst I really think a list like this could be used for good - it genuinely is a helpful resource - it kinda did arguably help fuel this demand.

[Loelya]

I won’t quote your entire post since I think all of what you said are strongly valid points, but what you said about “slamming on the brakes” is pretty much exactly my mindset with clearing the first post for now. too many people apparently were running away with it so it gets the brakes.

[Loelya]

also this may be a silly concern but.... my pms are always open if anyone reading this has criticisms about this thread and don’t want to post here publicly. I don’t want to give people the impression that you can’t contact me privately if you’d rather do so. encouraging people to join in the discussion is just me hoping to get a broad range of perspective. but if you don’t feel comfortable posting here, I’m completely open to pms. I really don’t bite.

[lil rascal]

I don't have anything constructive to add as far as how you could set it up to not have a list like look or hold sorry but I also found this was being referenced as the difinitive new list in trading. I just wanted to post to say that I know that wasn't your intention and I think it's great that you're being proactive about trying to prevent this from having a negative impact on the trading community

[FriedApplePie]

I honestly think there needs to be a guideline for newer players/returning players who haven’t been on in a while. When I came back in December, I was so glad this post was here because I did not know my Skelebun was worth as much as it was-and without having this guideline I personally wouldn’t have thought anything about the worth of my pet and would’ve accepted a totally unfair trade for it. Not to mention the other valuable pets that I had, which isn’t many, but still.

I think not having anything to reference to is bad for anyone who is confused, because I have even recently seen people lie about the worth of pets to scam others.

I do want to let you know that this thread has helped a bunch of people, but I understand that it shouldn’t be regarded as the new “list”. It’s saddening that people have taken advantage of it, especially when it was extremely helpful to returning or new players. I know I constantly looked at it because I was so confused about the recent values of pets, and I adored all the links you already had. It was super convenient to have all that information at one place.

[softpaw]

I honestly think there needs to be a guideline for newer players/returning players who haven’t been on in a while. When I came back in December, I was so glad this post was here because I did not know my Skelebun was worth as much as it was-and without having this guideline I personally wouldn’t have thought anything about the worth of my pet and would’ve accepted a totally unfair trade for it. Not to mention the other valuable pets that I had, which isn’t many, but still.

I think not having anything to reference to is bad for anyone who is confused, because I have even recently seen people lie about the worth of pets to scam others.

I do want to let you know that this thread has helped a bunch of people, but I understand that it shouldn’t be regarded as the new “list”. It’s saddening that people have taken advantage of it, especially when it was extremely helpful to returning or new players. I know I constantly looked at it because I was so confused about the recent values of pets, and I adored all the links you already had. It was super convenient to have all that information at one place.

I would also like to chime in with my support for this thread. It was easy to read and cut straight to the point. Demand is a huge part of trading on this website and people should be able to know what they can get for their pet. I would hate for it to be made harder for people to find this information because I think its disingenuous to pretend it doesn't have a huge effect on how pets are valued on this website and how people decide if they want to accept a trade or not.

I do agree with many of the concerns that this well meaning idea seems to have been twisted into "this is the bare minimum of what you should trade this pet for" instead of "here are some examples of what this pet is being traded for which are currently at around this value". I'm not sure how that distinction can be emphasized but there is a lot of hard work and love put into this thread and it shows. I hope it can be updated and put back up again soon because it really was a great resource for trading.

[Loelya]

workin on it y'all. thank you for the support. ♡

[kee;]

I’m a bit late to the party, but I also wanted to throw out my support! We know you didn’t intend for these negative consequences, so don’t worry about it at all!
And I don’t think it’s as much anything you did, Loelya, but rather more greedy users who have pets with higher demand and want to get every possible bit they can out of their pet, and this guide happens to be a convenient want for them to “justify” asking for even more on account of “demand”. The issue is that your guide already accounts for the demand, that’s the entire guide 🙃. I don’t blame you for that I’m the slightest!

-kee

[Loelya]

I really do super appreciate everyone who’s come by to show support. ♡ It really means so much to know that this thread has been helpful to at least a few who’ve come across it. I’m working on a new format for the reference and sincerely hope to have it posted within 2-3 days. I’m aiming for something that presents the same general information without necessarily assigning value to certain pets.

as much as I appreciate all the reassurance, I didn’t take it down because of a sense of guilt or anything! there’s no worries about that. hearing that players have been using the reference for trade rhetoric it wasn’t intended for is just frustrating to me more than anything really. the kind of complicated landscape of the trading scene is this puzzle I looked at and thought “maybe I can help” and then suddenly realized that instead of clearing a path like intended, I may have just dumped more debris in everyone’s way.

so the deletion of the first post is more about me getting rid of that debris and reworking the original idea. I still plan to have pictures, links, and a general outline of demand available for players to hopefully get some benefit from. I’m just trying to avoid more unintentional debris dumping.

[amarok.]

One suggestion would maybe be to try to construct a guide purely showing which pets are the most sought after, as opposed to actually trying to quantify anything pets are going for. I'm not sure how it might work but it's something a lot harder to manipulate for personal gain, I think.